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Injector "gunk" and E-85

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Old Sep 12, 2016, 04:56 PM
  #226  
kaj
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So, if we take all these findings... and decide to keep running e85 without pump gas breaks in between.... what is the simplest fix?
An additive?
And which one?

My head is spinning after reading all that. Well.. and I'm suffering from a cold while studying for two mid-terms tomorrow.

My brain no workie right now LOL.
Old Sep 12, 2016, 05:05 PM
  #227  
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Consensus still stands at running a tank or 2 of gas in between to clean out the deposits. Hopefully mrfred's research on Champion eGuard will net positive results.
Old Sep 12, 2016, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Klaiceps
Have you actually read the SAE report?

Have only read pieces of the report & I am not finding fault w/it at all. Ive been over the gunk issue for sometime, knowing that the low levels of PIB is the root cause. The corrective action is to flush w/gas periodically

I was taking exception to your somewhat rude comments about me throwing the original report like gospel

There are ways to write & comment w/out offending
Old Sep 12, 2016, 06:02 PM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by MinusPrevious
Have only read pieces of the report & I am not finding fault w/it at all. Ive been over the gunk issue for sometime, knowing that the low levels of PIB is the root cause. The corrective action is to flush w/gas periodically

I was taking exception to your somewhat rude comments about me throwing the original report like gospel

There are ways to write & comment w/out offending
Apologies for coming off that way. A bit more tact is needed on my part.

For those who have flex-fuel capabilities and/or don't mind switching between gas and E85, gunking should be a non issue. However for those with higher compression motors built to take advantage of E85 or for those who just don't want to swap between E85 and gas, it seems removing the EGR system and adding some sort of additive would be helpful in warding off the deposits. The question is, what would that additive be?
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Old Sep 12, 2016, 06:43 PM
  #230  
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I did disable my EGR around the time I switched to E85, 6 years and not a single tank of regular gasoline later and no gunk. I didn't remove the system though, just disabled.
Old Sep 12, 2016, 07:45 PM
  #231  
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Originally Posted by Biggiesacks
I did disable my EGR around the time I switched to E85, 6 years and not a single tank of regular gasoline later and no gunk. I didn't remove the system though, just disabled.
I wouldn't automatically attribute the disabled EGR to the non-gunked injectors. I've been running without EGR and PCV for several years now, and I still get gunk from Portland E85. Conversely, when I was living in the Tricities, I had both EGR and PCV, and I never once had gunk on my injectors. However as the SAE article notes, EGR and PCV do appear to be able to contribute to the issue.
Old Sep 12, 2016, 07:52 PM
  #232  
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Originally Posted by mrfred
I wouldn't automatically attribute the disabled EGR to the non-gunked injectors. I've been running without EGR and PCV for several years now, and I still get gunk from Portland E85. Conversely, when I was living in the Tricities, I had both EGR and PCV, and I never once had gunk on my injectors. However as the SAE article notes, EGR and PCV do appear to be able to contribute to the issue.
Totally, i was just making the observation. I think the California blend of E85 I have been getting might have more to do with it then anything.
Old Sep 12, 2016, 08:10 PM
  #233  
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i run pump other than for events, so I'm good. I'm just glad my sacrifice in power wasn't for naught LOL. I had a lot of people telling me I was cray cray for worrying about the build up.
Old Sep 12, 2016, 11:41 PM
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I gotta get mine cleaned . Hope they don't look like those
Old Sep 13, 2016, 11:27 AM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by Kritiang
I gotta get mine cleaned . Hope they don't look like those
Just take them out and soak them in 93 octane gas. Come back in a day or two and you should be good. IMO you only need them cleaned if you need a backflush. Being that this material dissolves in gas, chances are it will fix your problem. Again, just my opinion.

As for SAE papers. I would take them for face value. As I run a session at world congress its merely their findings. Its not saying they are correct or they are wrong. The reader is left to make an opinion on the findings.

As for SAE specs, these are 100% different then papers. Specs are specs. Almost like a source.
Old Sep 30, 2016, 12:03 PM
  #236  
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Found this on GT-R Life. It seems there is another option for those that are dead set on E85 and don't want to run regular gas every other fill. However it seems the EPA has banned methylal in all fuel additives so might be next to impossible to find Gumout. I just wanted to put this out there in case someone knows of something that has methylal and can be used as an E85 fuel additive.

http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic/...-or-e85-gt-rs/

E85 fuel is a strange beast, it is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. This creates two unique problems; (if you don't want the read all the science, the bottom line is add Valvoline Water Remover and Gumout for flex fuel several times a year and your good to go)

Ethanol is hygroscopic (loves to absorb water) but when combined with 15% gasoline, the water will drop out of the ethanol at only 0.5% concentration. What that means is, in the morning when it's cool with high humidity the E85 is sucking water out of the air, then letting it drop out of solution and settle in the bottom of your tank. Fortunately there is a very easy solution; once or twice a year add a water remover that has isopropyl alcohol base like Valvoline Water Remover. The brand isn't important, what you need is isopropyl alcohol based additive. Rubbing alcohol will work, but you will need to add a lot of it, because it contains 30% water to keep it from evaporating too fast when your Honey rubs it on your back .

The second unique problem is, the 15% gas in E85 has detergent added to it, one of which is Poly Iso-Butylene. It is a excellent detergent in gasoline, but it SUCKS when it is in a 50% or greater solution of ethanol. For some complex reasons, it actually becomes insoluble and plates out on injectors and valves. The EPA has know this since 2007, but has not changed the rules that force gas companies to add it to ALL gasoline (except racing fuel). GM and Ford have both tested E85 engines and found that in normal in-town driving the fouling can become significant in as little as 5,000 miles. At highway speeds the fouling slows significantly, to the point that it is a non-issue. Again, there is an easy solution; use an injector cleaner that is formulated for flex fuel and contains methylal. I only know of one, Gumout for flex fuel. There may be others, I just don't know of them.

I hope this helps. Just for the record I don't own stock in either Gumout or Valvoline, although I may have to get some now ha ha ha.
Furthermore, post #58 of the thread says that injector gunk deposit is more prevalent for those that do more city driving. For those that do more highway miles and/or racing, gunk is pretty much a non-issue. Take this with a grain of salt because the OP in that thread has no real experience with E85 but is a retired chemical engineer and has access to petroleum engineering resources.
I don't use E85, I use Shell 93 octane. I did all this research for 2 friends (Ilonggo and Necrotic Brain) who did the conversion. I'm a retired Chem. E. that happens to live close to one of the only colleges that offers a Petroleum Engineering degree, that's how I got the info for those guys. They asked me to post the info., so I did.

So, now you know, I have no first hand knowledge running E85. I did find out that the injector fouling occurs mostly when you are doing in-town driving, not at higher RPM. Also, running the tank near empty (not gauge empty, real fuel tank empty), run 2 tanks of Shell through, then run near empty and go back to E85, your injectors will be clean. I was told that doing this every 6 to 8,000 miles would not only clean the injectors, but the "sludge" that can build up in the fuel tank, without plugging filters. Using this approach, both friends cars run like bats out of hell (Ilonggo has run 9's at the drag strip).

If you do mostly highway driving, don't worry about it. Maybe once every 15 to 20,000 miles, run a couple of tanks of Shell through and you are good to go. Never add gas to a tank that has E85 if you can avoid it, the sludge build up in your tank will be much worst (read get ready to change filters).

Last point; advice is rarely worth more than you paid for it. All this info is from talking to professors, no actual experience.

Last edited by Klaiceps; Sep 30, 2016 at 03:11 PM.
Old Sep 30, 2016, 02:07 PM
  #237  
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^^^Well done, good find That matches the conclusion on post no. 130 (insufficient percentage of PIB in solution)

Last edited by MinusPrevious; Sep 30, 2016 at 02:19 PM.
Old Sep 30, 2016, 02:45 PM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by Klaiceps
Found this on GT-R Life. It seems there is another option for those that are dead set on E85 and don't want to run regular gas every other fill. However it seems the EPA has banned methyal in all fuel additives so might be next to impossible to find Gumout. I just wanted to put this out there in case someone knows of something that has methylal and can be used as an E85 fuel additive.

...
I came across that thread when I was researching additives. Its kind of a dead-end because "methyal" (probably meant to be written as methyl) is not a specific additive, and when I look up fuel detergents on the internet, none contain methyl groups. The OP mentions that methyal has been banned, so my guess is that he's confusing it with MTBE that is an oxygenator that contains a methyl group, but its not a detergent. And when I called Gumout, they stated that they have no fuel detergent additives with a methyl group. That post was a good start for me though because it prompted me to carefully re-review fuel detergents and available products rather than simply believe some off-the-cuff statement. Must admit that I really wanted to believe that post because the guy sounded like he had in-depth first-hand experience, and well, because it was on GT-R life where the cars cost 3x as much as Evos and therefore anyone posting on the forum is probably pretty smart.
Old Sep 30, 2016, 03:01 PM
  #239  
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Originally Posted by mrfred
I came across that thread when I was researching additives. Its kind of a dead-end because "methyal" (probably meant to be written as methyl) is not a specific additive, and when I look up fuel detergents on the internet, none contain methyl groups. The OP mentions that methyal has been banned, so my guess is that he's confusing it with MTBE that is an oxygenator that contains a methyl group, but its not a detergent. And when I called Gumout, they stated that they have no fuel detergent additives with a methyl group. That post was a good start for me though because it prompted me to carefully re-review fuel detergents and available products rather than simply believe some off-the-cuff statement. Must admit that I really wanted to believe that post because the guy sounded like he had in-depth first-hand experience, and well, because it was on GT-R life where the cars cost 3x as much as Evos and therefore anyone posting on the forum is probably pretty smart.
So are you saying the two additives won't work as hypothesized in those comments?
Old Sep 30, 2016, 03:33 PM
  #240  
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Originally Posted by mrfred
I came across that thread when I was researching additives. Its kind of a dead-end because "methyal" (probably meant to be written as methyl) is not a specific additive, and when I look up fuel detergents on the internet, none contain methyl groups. The OP mentions that methyal has been banned, so my guess is that he's confusing it with MTBE that is an oxygenator that contains a methyl group, but its not a detergent. And when I called Gumout, they stated that they have no fuel detergent additives with a methyl group. That post was a good start for me though because it prompted me to carefully re-review fuel detergents and available products rather than simply believe some off-the-cuff statement. Must admit that I really wanted to believe that post because the guy sounded like he had in-depth first-hand experience, and well, because it was on GT-R life where the cars cost 3x as much as Evos and therefore anyone posting on the forum is probably pretty smart.
When I came across methylal in that post, I did some searching and it is indeed a real chemical, well at least that's what Wikipedia and other sites said. It's known by other names but it's proper name is Dimethoxymethane. This chemical is known to be a good solvent, which is probably why it was good at removing gunk caused by running E85. As far as to why it is no longer in use in fuel additives, that I am unsure of.
Dimethoxymethane, also called methylal, is a colorless flammable liquid with a low boiling point, low viscosity and excellent dissolving power.
I too tend to trust findings in that forum due to the same reason you listed, but as with any advice given, gotta take it with a grain of salt.


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