My evo ix knock sum ok?
-Identical maps perfect torque curve
-runs were consistently over 290 wtq over 290 whp
-High octane map same as above
-Low octane map stock
Difference is 30 peak wtq... very far from MBT... huge loss in midrange
Stock map
-RcrewRacing 272 camshafts
-RcrewRacing Akmee Cam gears
-Fuel pump
-MBC
-Turboback exhaust
-EFIxMR Noob tuner.
EFI,
Thanks for the data.
The peak power was the same in both pulls, actually a bit more in the second one. It's just that the peak torque was down in the midrange.
The first run didn't have a boost spike by any chance, did it? To me it looks like the first run just had a bit moree boost right as the turbo hit full boost.
Did you by any chance log the runs with EvoScan or any other logging program?
It's hard to tell if any timing was pulled on either run simply by that torque curve.
You know what I was thinking, too, EFI. Some of what you may have seen in the past losing torque or power when putting the low octane map back to stock is because the octane number in the ECU could be too low, causing the use of the low map or an interpolation between the two. You could try resetting the ECU (unhook the battery) right before you do your dyno run. At least in the DSM ECU, this reset the octane number back to the point where only the high map would be used.
Eric
Thanks for the data.
The peak power was the same in both pulls, actually a bit more in the second one. It's just that the peak torque was down in the midrange.
The first run didn't have a boost spike by any chance, did it? To me it looks like the first run just had a bit moree boost right as the turbo hit full boost.
Did you by any chance log the runs with EvoScan or any other logging program?
It's hard to tell if any timing was pulled on either run simply by that torque curve.
You know what I was thinking, too, EFI. Some of what you may have seen in the past losing torque or power when putting the low octane map back to stock is because the octane number in the ECU could be too low, causing the use of the low map or an interpolation between the two. You could try resetting the ECU (unhook the battery) right before you do your dyno run. At least in the DSM ECU, this reset the octane number back to the point where only the high map would be used.
Eric
It seems some people think you need one of these obsolete pieces of hardware in order to be considered a legitimate tuner...
I had one of these for the past 2 years...
Fuel Map
33BD 15x18
34D7 15x18
Ignition Map
3985 19x19
3Af9 19x19
Boost
Target 40FE (22-6)x4
Duty 4156 (22-6)x4
Limiter 3614 10x1
Limiter delay 159A 2x1
Speed Limiter 158E 2x1
Rev Limiter 158C 2x1
Eric,
The boost in both runs is the same. I run manual boost controls on my car and the boost was about 22 psi peak tapering to 18 on this car by redline.
When you switch back to identical maps the wtq and whp are immediately over 290 again.
Not to say anyone is accusing me of manipulating data, but really from my point of view I have nothing to gain by doing so.
I'm just trying to describe phenomenon I've been seeing. And I'm doing it openly and freely sharing with the community.
The boost in both runs is the same. I run manual boost controls on my car and the boost was about 22 psi peak tapering to 18 on this car by redline.
When you switch back to identical maps the wtq and whp are immediately over 290 again.
Not to say anyone is accusing me of manipulating data, but really from my point of view I have nothing to gain by doing so.
I'm just trying to describe phenomenon I've been seeing. And I'm doing it openly and freely sharing with the community.
Why are you so against logging data and computers? The ECU is a computer after all, right?
I'm just curious to see the timing curve and knock counts, if any.
In the days of carburetors, sure there wasn't any choice. You had to use a dyno. But today with more sophiticated equipment, we can actually see what the ECU is doing.
We don't have to get into a battle of opinions again, but you can see timing or knock in a torque curve as well as you can when it is logged.
Eric
I'm just curious to see the timing curve and knock counts, if any.
In the days of carburetors, sure there wasn't any choice. You had to use a dyno. But today with more sophiticated equipment, we can actually see what the ECU is doing.
We don't have to get into a battle of opinions again, but you can see timing or knock in a torque curve as well as you can when it is logged.
Eric
Originally Posted by EFIxMR
Eric,
The boost in both runs is the same. I run manual boost controls on my car and the boost was about 22 psi peak tapering to 18 on this car by redline.
When you switch back to identical maps the wtq and whp are immediately over 290 again.
Not to say anyone is accusing me of manipulating data, but really from my point of view I have nothing to gain by doing so.
I'm just trying to describe phenomenon I've been seeing. And I'm doing it openly and freely sharing with the community.
The boost in both runs is the same. I run manual boost controls on my car and the boost was about 22 psi peak tapering to 18 on this car by redline.
When you switch back to identical maps the wtq and whp are immediately over 290 again.
Not to say anyone is accusing me of manipulating data, but really from my point of view I have nothing to gain by doing so.
I'm just trying to describe phenomenon I've been seeing. And I'm doing it openly and freely sharing with the community.
I truly appreciate this. By no way am I accusing you of anything.
It's just strange to see the HP the same, but the torque just down in the midrange. To me, that's usually a boost spike, but it could very well be timing being pulled too.
That's why I asked about the log.
Maybe next time you can do one more run after resetting the ECU, too. I'm curious if the numbers will go up. This should reset the octane value so the low map isn't used.
Thanks again,
Eric
Originally Posted by EFIxMR
I don't know anything about the DSM ECU so I cannot comment on that, but my hours of dyno testing on the EVO ECU shows no timing pull when the High/LOW octane maps are the same.
This is evidenced by the torque curve remaining in the same pattern on the dyno.
This is evidenced by the torque curve remaining in the same pattern on the dyno.
My high and low maps are flattened and when the knock voltage spikes timing gets pulled, I don't have the log file with me but I will try to post it up latter this evening.
Is it possible that the ecu trys to drop to the high det map before the knock event actually occurs? like as the knock voltage crosses a certain threshold? And then pulls timing on a higher threshold spike? That may explain why when the maps were flat the torque curve was better, you were not actually getting a high enough voltage spike to cause the ecu to pull timing but it was high enough for it drop to the high det map as a precaution.......
In the logged run i have (4th gear on the interstate) knock voltage was hovering right around 1.0v, the knock event was a spike up to 2.25v with 3 or 4 degrees of timing pulled.
The third gear runs on the same tune did not show any knock or pulled timing, but the voltage was getting up around 1.5v in the same rpm range.
Last edited by Mad_SB; Jul 21, 2006 at 12:30 PM.
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EFI and Eric - interesting data and thoughts. So far my low octane maps are stock. I've only changed high octane #2.
If there is an octane number than interpolates between the low and high octane maps then if the ECU isn't picking up false knock and the high octane map is optimised we should be able to run near to it with the option to pull back for safety. Is it likely that the camshafts are changing the knock noise thresholds on the above dyno tested engine? If the ECU was just programmed - not sure if this resets any learning - then could the octane number start midway like the Subarus do? Or if it started high and did a few pulls and picked up false knock it might have pulled the octane number down - presumably we'd see this if we logged the ECU right from when it was first fired up with a new map? To me the last piece of the jigsaw between the two dyno plots shown is the timing actually run and the knock sum.
Despite there being a difference of about 9 degrees between my low and high maps it seems to run the high timing, but then all I have is an exhaust.
If there is an octane number than interpolates between the low and high octane maps then if the ECU isn't picking up false knock and the high octane map is optimised we should be able to run near to it with the option to pull back for safety. Is it likely that the camshafts are changing the knock noise thresholds on the above dyno tested engine? If the ECU was just programmed - not sure if this resets any learning - then could the octane number start midway like the Subarus do? Or if it started high and did a few pulls and picked up false knock it might have pulled the octane number down - presumably we'd see this if we logged the ECU right from when it was first fired up with a new map? To me the last piece of the jigsaw between the two dyno plots shown is the timing actually run and the knock sum.
Despite there being a difference of about 9 degrees between my low and high maps it seems to run the high timing, but then all I have is an exhaust.
Last edited by jcsbanks; Jul 21, 2006 at 12:27 PM.
jcsbanks,
Yeah, I'm not sure how the octane number exactly works in the Evo ECU in response to programming or reset. It is something that can be logged, so hopefully it will be in EvoScan, soon.
It's an exciting time....that's for sure.
We'll have all of this figured out sooner or later.
Eric
Yeah, I'm not sure how the octane number exactly works in the Evo ECU in response to programming or reset. It is something that can be logged, so hopefully it will be in EvoScan, soon.
It's an exciting time....that's for sure.
We'll have all of this figured out sooner or later.
Eric
When I see this data and I see a 30 wtq difference by changing the low det map to stock, and that tells me that the stock knock sensor is being overly conservative pulling too much timing robbing the power band of tq.
As the engine goes up in the rpm range the stock knock filter parameters make the knock sensor less sensitive so that is likely why the peak whp stayed the same.
The thing is with the amount of different compensations built into the stock ecu like ET... AIT... ect... power does vary a bit... but it is usually 5 to 10 whp.
When an engine is missing 30 wtq, directly after changing the low octane map back to stock, that leads me to believe that is the work of the knock sensor.
As the engine goes up in the rpm range the stock knock filter parameters make the knock sensor less sensitive so that is likely why the peak whp stayed the same.
The thing is with the amount of different compensations built into the stock ecu like ET... AIT... ect... power does vary a bit... but it is usually 5 to 10 whp.
When an engine is missing 30 wtq, directly after changing the low octane map back to stock, that leads me to believe that is the work of the knock sensor.
Originally Posted by EFIxMR
When an engine is missing 30 wtq, directly after changing the low octane map back to stock, that leads me to believe that is the work of the knock sensor.
Thanks again for the tests.
Eric
I am glad this turned back in to a civil discussion. We have such a wealth of knowlegable DSM/EVO owners on here who are willing to share and discuss their findings. It would be a shame to lose that resource.
