New Logs - These Seem Better Except One
New Logs - These Seem Better Except One
These runs were done back to back.
Run One: Seems fine.
Run Two: Seems like there's some severe knock going on
Run Three: Seems fine again.
Run four: There is some knock present when not WOT.
I'm curious what you all think about these pulls. I'm starting to get a grasp on what they mean through researching this board.
Thanks.
Run One: Seems fine.
Code:
RPM TPSKnockSum TimingAdv 2562.5 32 0 26 2562.5 38 0 24 2593.75 46 0 18 2625 50 0 17 2625 54 0 15 2656.25 57 0 13 2687.5 59 0 12 2687.5 61 0 10 2718.75 72 0 10 2750 85 0 9 2750 96 0 10 2781.25 100 0 9 2812.5 100 0 9 2843.75 100 0 8 2843.75 100 0 8 2875 100 0 8 2906.25 100 0 8 2937.5 100 0 8 2968.75 100 0 8 3000 100 0 8 3062.5 100 0 8 3093.75 100 0 8 3125 100 0 8 3156.25 100 0 8 3187.5 100 0 8 3250 100 0 8 3281.25 100 0 8 3343.75 100 0 8 3406.25 100 0 8 3437.5 100 2 7 3500 100 2 7 3531.25 100 2 7 3593.75 100 1 8 3656.25 100 1 8 3687.5 100 1 8 3750 100 1 8 3812.5 100 1 8 3875 100 1 8 3906.25 100 1 8 3968.75 100 1 8 4031.25 100 1 8 4062.5 100 1 8 4093.75 100 1 8 4187.5 100 1 8 4218.75 100 0 8 4281.25 100 0 8 4343.75 100 0 8 4375 100 0 8 4437.5 100 0 8 4500 100 0 8 4531.25 100 0 8 4562.5 100 0 8 4625 100 0 8 4687.5 100 0 8 4718.75 100 0 8 4750 100 0 8 4812.5 100 0 8 4875 100 0 8 4906.25 100 0 8 4937.5 100 0 8 5000 100 0 8 5031.25 100 0 8 5093.75 100 0 8 5125 100 0 8 5187.5 100 0 8 5250 100 0 9 5281.25 100 0 9 5343.75 100 0 9 5375 100 0 9 5437.5 100 0 9 5468.75 100 0 9 5500 100 0 9 5531.25 100 0 9 5593.75 100 0 9 5625 100 0 9 5687.5 100 0 9 5718.75 100 0 9 5781.25 100 0 9 5812.5 100 0 9 5875 100 0 9 5906.25 100 0 9 5937.5 100 0 9 6000 100 0 9 6031.25 100 0 9 6093.75 100 0 9 6125 100 0 10 6156.25 100 0 10 6187.5 100 0 10 6250 100 0 10 6281.25 100 0 10 6312.5 100 0 10 6343.75 100 0 10 6406.25 100 0 11 6437.5 100 0 11 6468.75 100 0 11 6531.25 100 0 11 6531.25 100 0 11 6593.75 100 0 11 6625 100 0 12 6656.25 100 0 12 6718.75 100 0 12 6750 100 0 12 6781.25 100 0 12 6812.5 100 0 12 6843.75 100 0 12 6906.25 100 0 13 6906.25 100 0 13 6937.5 100 0 13 7000 100 0 13 7031.25 100 0 13 7062.5 100 0 14 7093.75 100 0 14 7125 100 0 14 7156.25 100 0 14 7218.75 100 0 16 7218.75 100 0 16 7250 100 0 16 7312.5 100 0 17 7312.5 100 0 17 7375 100 1 16 7406.25 100 1 16 7406.25 100 1 17 7468.75 100 1 17 7500 100 0 18 7500 100 0 18 7531.25 100 0 18 7562.5 100 0 18 7593.75 96 0 18
Code:
RPM TPSKnockSum TimingAdv 2500 43 4 20 2531.25 93 4 14 2562.5 100 4 11 2562.5 100 4 10 2593.75 100 9 8 2625 100 9 7 2625 100 8 6 2656.25 100 8 6 2687.5 100 8 6 2687.5 100 8 6 2750 100 8 4 2750 100 8 4 2781.25 100 8 4 2812.5 100 8 4 2843.75 100 8 4 2843.75 100 8 4 2906.25 100 8 4 2937.5 100 8 4 2968.75 100 8 4 3000 100 7 4 3031.25 100 7 4 3062.5 100 7 4 3125 100 7 4 3156.25 100 7 4 3187.5 100 7 4 3250 100 7 4 3281.25 100 7 4 3343.75 100 7 4 3406.25 100 7 4 3437.5 100 7 4 3500 100 7 4 3531.25 100 7 4 3562.5 100 6 5 3656.25 100 6 5 3656.25 100 6 5 3718.75 100 6 5 3781.25 100 6 5 3781.25 100 6 5 3843.75 100 6 5 3906.25 100 6 5 3937.5 100 6 5 3968.75 100 6 5 4031.25 100 6 5 4062.5 100 6 5 4093.75 100 6 5 4187.5 100 6 5 4187.5 100 5 5 4250 100 5 5 4281.25 100 5 5 4375 100 5 5 4406.25 100 5 5 4437.5 100 5 5 4468.75 100 5 5 4531.25 100 5 5 4593.75 100 5 5 4625 100 5 5 4656.25 100 5 5 4718.75 100 5 5 4750 100 5 5 4812.5 100 5 5 4875 100 4 5 4906.25 100 4 5 4937.5 100 4 5 5000 100 4 5 5031.25 100 4 5 5093.75 100 4 5 5125 100 4 5 5156.25 100 4 5 5218.75 100 4 7 5250 100 4 7 5281.25 100 4 7 5343.75 100 4 7 5375 100 4 7 5437.5 100 3 7 5500 100 3 7 5531.25 100 3 7 5562.5 100 3 7 5625 100 3 7 5656.25 100 3 7 5718.75 100 3 7 5718.75 100 3 7 5781.25 100 3 7 5812.5 100 3 7 5875 100 3 7 5906.25 100 3 7 5937.5 100 3 7 6000 100 2 7 6031.25 100 2 7 6062.5 100 2 7 6093.75 100 2 8 6156.25 100 2 8 6218.75 100 2 8 6250 100 2 8 6281.25 100 2 8 6312.5 100 2 8 6343.75 100 2 8 6406.25 100 2 9 6406.25 100 2 9 6468.75 100 2 9 6468.75 100 1 9 6562.5 100 1 9 6562.5 100 1 9 6625 100 1 10 6656.25 100 1 10 6687.5 100 1 10 6750 100 1 10 6750 100 1 10 6781.25 100 1 10 6812.5 100 1 10 6843.75 100 1 10 6875 100 1 11 6906.25 100 1 11 6937.5 100 0 12 7000 100 0 12 7000 100 0 12 7062.5 100 0 14 7093.75 100 0 14 7125 100 0 14 7156.25 100 0 14 7187.5 100 0 15 7218.75 100 0 16 7250 100 0 16 7281.25 100 0 16 7312.5 100 0 17 7343.75 100 1 16 7375 100 0 17 7406.25 100 0 17 7437.5 100 0 18 7468.75 100 0 18 7500 100 0 18 7531.25 100 0 18 7562.5 100 0 18 7593.75 100 0 18 7625 100 0 18 7656.25 30 0 26
Code:
RPM TPSKnockSum TimingAdv 2593.75 37 0 16 2625 61 0 11 2625 100 0 9 2656.25 100 0 9 2687.5 100 0 8 2718.75 100 0 8 2750 100 0 8 2750 100 0 8 2781.25 100 0 8 2812.5 100 0 8 2843.75 100 0 8 2906.25 100 0 8 2906.25 100 0 8 2968.75 100 0 8 3000 100 0 8 3031.25 100 0 8 3062.5 100 0 8 3125 100 0 8 3156.25 100 0 8 3218.75 100 0 8 3250 100 0 8 3312.5 100 0 8 3343.75 100 0 8 3406.25 100 1 8 3437.5 100 1 8 3500 100 0 8 3562.5 100 0 8 3593.75 100 0 8 3656.25 100 0 8 3718.75 100 0 8 3781.25 100 0 8 3812.5 100 0 8 3875 100 0 8 3906.25 100 0 8 3968.75 100 0 8 4031.25 100 0 8 4062.5 100 0 8 4125 100 0 8 4156.25 100 0 8 4187.5 100 0 8 4281.25 100 0 8 4312.5 100 0 8 4375 100 0 8 4406.25 100 0 8 4468.75 100 0 8 4500 100 0 8 4531.25 100 0 8 4625 100 0 8 4656.25 100 0 8 4687.5 100 0 8 4750 100 0 8 4781.25 100 0 8 4843.75 100 0 8 4906.25 100 0 8 4937.5 100 0 8 4968.75 100 0 8 5062.5 100 0 8 5062.5 100 0 8 5125 100 0 8 5187.5 100 0 8 5218.75 100 0 8 5281.25 100 0 9 5312.5 100 0 9 5343.75 100 0 9 5406.25 100 0 9 5437.5 100 0 9 5500 100 0 9 5531.25 100 0 9 5593.75 100 0 9 5656.25 100 0 9 5656.25 100 0 9 5718.75 100 0 9 5750 100 0 9 5812.5 100 0 9 5843.75 100 0 9 5875 100 0 9 5937.5 100 0 9 5968.75 100 0 9 6000 100 0 9 6062.5 100 0 9 6093.75 100 0 9 6125 100 0 10 6156.25 100 0 10 6187.5 100 0 10 6250 100 2 9 6281.25 100 2 9 6312.5 100 2 9 6343.75 100 2 9 6406.25 100 2 10 6437.5 100 2 10 6468.75 100 1 10 6531.25 100 1 10 6531.25 100 1 10 6593.75 100 1 10 6625 100 1 11 6656.25 100 1 11 6687.5 100 1 11 6750 100 1 11 6750 100 1 11 6781.25 100 1 11 6843.75 100 1 11 6843.75 100 1 12 6906.25 100 1 12 6937.5 100 0 13 6968.75 100 0 13 7000 100 0 13 7031.25 100 0 14 7062.5 100 0 14 7093.75 100 0 14 7156.25 100 1 14 7187.5 100 1 15 7218.75 100 1 15 7218.75 100 1 15 7281.25 100 1 15 7312.5 100 1 16 7343.75 100 1 16 7375 100 0 17 7406.25 100 0 17 7437.5 100 0 18 7468.75 100 0 18 7500 100 0 18 7500 100 0 18 7562.5 100 0 18 7562.5 100 0 18 7625 100 0 18 7625 100 0 18 7687.5 78 0 18
Code:
RPM TPS KnockSum TimingAdv 2406.25 32 2 22 2437.5 32 2 22 2468.75 32 2 22 2500 32 4 21 2531.25 32 4 21 2562.5 31 4 21 2593.75 31 4 22 2625 31 4 23 2656.25 31 4 25 2656.25 31 4 23 2687.5 31 4 23 2718.75 31 4 23 2750 31 3 26 2781.25 31 3 26 2781.25 31 3 24 2843.75 31 3 26 2843.75 31 3 25 2875 31 3 27 2906.25 31 3 26 2937.5 31 3 26 2937.5 31 3 28 3000 31 3 28 3031.25 31 3 28 3031.25 30 3 26 . . . . . 2562.5 100 2 13 2593.75 100 2 13 2625 100 2 11 2625 100 2 10 2687.5 100 1 9 2687.5 100 1 9 2718.75 100 1 8 2750 100 1 8 2781.25 100 1 8 2812.5 100 1 8 2812.5 100 1 8 2843.75 100 1 8 2875 100 1 8 2906.25 100 1 8 2968.75 100 1 8 3000 100 1 8 3031.25 100 1 8 3062.5 100 0 8 3093.75 100 0 8 3125 100 0 8 3187.5 100 0 8 3218.75 100 0 8 3281.25 100 0 8 3343.75 100 0 8 3375 100 0 8 3406.25 100 0 8 3468.75 100 3 8 3531.25 100 3 7 3593.75 100 3 7 3656.25 100 3 7 3687.5 100 2 7 3750 100 2 7 3781.25 100 2 7 3843.75 100 2 7 3906.25 100 2 7 3968.75 100 2 7 4000 100 2 7 4062.5 100 2 7 4125 100 2 7 4156.25 100 2 7 4218.75 100 2 7 4281.25 100 2 7 4312.5 100 2 7 4375 100 1 8 4406.25 100 1 8 4468.75 100 1 8 4531.25 100 1 8 4562.5 100 1 8 4625 100 1 8 4656.25 100 1 8 4718.75 100 1 8 4781.25 100 1 8 4812.5 100 1 8 4875 100 1 8 4906.25 100 1 8 4968.75 100 1 8 5031.25 100 0 8 5062.5 100 0 8 5125 100 0 8 5156.25 100 0 8 5218.75 100 0 8 5250 100 0 9 5281.25 100 0 9 5343.75 100 0 9 5406.25 100 0 9 5437.5 100 0 9 5500 100 0 9 5531.25 100 0 9 5593.75 100 0 9 5625 100 0 9 5656.25 100 0 9 5687.5 100 0 9 5750 100 0 9 5812.5 100 0 9 5843.75 100 0 9 5875 100 0 9 5937.5 100 0 9 5968.75 100 0 9 6000 100 0 9 6031.25 100 0 9 6093.75 100 0 9 6125 100 0 10 6156.25 100 0 10 6187.5 100 0 10 6250 100 0 10 6281.25 100 0 10 6343.75 100 0 10 6343.75 100 0 10 6406.25 100 0 11 6437.5 100 0 11 6468.75 100 0 11 6500 100 0 11 6531.25 100 0 11 6562.5 100 0 11 6625 100 0 12 6656.25 100 0 12 6687.5 100 0 12 6718.75 100 0 12 6750 100 0 12 6781.25 100 0 12 6843.75 100 0 12 6875 100 0 13 6906.25 100 0 13 6937.5 100 0 13 6968.75 100 0 13 7000 100 0 13 7031.25 100 0 13 7062.5 100 0 14 7125 100 0 14 7156.25 100 0 14 7187.5 100 0 14 7187.5 100 0 15 7218.75 100 0 15 7281.25 100 0 16 7312.5 100 0 17 7343.75 100 0 17 7375 100 0 17 7406.25 100 0 17 7437.5 100 0 18 7468.75 100 0 18 7500 100 0 18 7531.25 100 0 18 7562.5 67 0 18
Thanks.
Here is my opinion:
I think that running 7-8* of timing @ peak torque/boost (3500-3700 rpm) is WAY too much. The EVO 8 runs between 1-3* of timing stock in that load area and on a richer AFR no less. So your tuner leaned out the mixture AND advanced the timing to 8 in that area. That is too much and unless you are running 100 octane gas, your car is more than likely to knock.
My advice to you is to get a different tune. Get a tune either from Jestr or from TTP. I may not like Scott as a person, but he is a superb tuner. He knows what he is doing. I really doubt that Scott will run 888888 @ peak torque boost and lean out the mixture.
I think that running 7-8* of timing @ peak torque/boost (3500-3700 rpm) is WAY too much. The EVO 8 runs between 1-3* of timing stock in that load area and on a richer AFR no less. So your tuner leaned out the mixture AND advanced the timing to 8 in that area. That is too much and unless you are running 100 octane gas, your car is more than likely to knock.
My advice to you is to get a different tune. Get a tune either from Jestr or from TTP. I may not like Scott as a person, but he is a superb tuner. He knows what he is doing. I really doubt that Scott will run 888888 @ peak torque boost and lean out the mixture.
I'm going to get some dyno pulls next weekend to verify my AFR's.
I was unable to see the AFR's logs during my "custom tune."
It is noted, however, that the tuner commented that my AFR's were nice and flat.
But, nice and flat where?
I was unable to see the AFR's logs during my "custom tune."
It is noted, however, that the tuner commented that my AFR's were nice and flat.
But, nice and flat where?
Originally Posted by TTP Engineering
Nice and flat, like your rod bearings when you continue to beat on 8* of ignition timing on boost spikes.
You would think after all the complaints of this timing number, "tuner A" would stop this ****ty practice of the signature 8*. Its a joke.
You's my boy NJ!
You would think after all the complaints of this timing number, "tuner A" would stop this ****ty practice of the signature 8*. Its a joke.
You's my boy NJ!
I'm not here to bash anyone, but just to learn and maybe figure out what can be done to rectify the situation.
I've read many times before where you, and others stated that this can have severe effects on the internals of the engine.
But, I have never seen a post/case where anyone's car had blown etc.
Could you explain why this is an unsafe way to do things.
Thanks.
I also had a custom tune from tuner A, but since I got re-reflashed from TTP I coud not be more happy with the car. Feels alot smoother and stronger. Can't wait to go to the track this weekend 
Originally Posted by kapolani
I appreciate the response.
I'm not here to bash anyone, but just to learn and maybe figure out what can be done to rectify the situation.
I've read many times before where you, and others stated that this can have severe effects on the internals of the engine.
But, I have never seen a post/case where anyone's car had blown etc.
Could you explain why this is an unsafe way to do things.
Thanks.
I'm not here to bash anyone, but just to learn and maybe figure out what can be done to rectify the situation.
I've read many times before where you, and others stated that this can have severe effects on the internals of the engine.
But, I have never seen a post/case where anyone's car had blown etc.
Could you explain why this is an unsafe way to do things.
Thanks.
You have 8* programmed and throughout much of the tune your knocksums are so high that you have timing pulled, leaving your effective ignition timing numbers at a level of lacking performance. Overzealous aggressive tunes do the opposite of what you want them to do. Instead of making more power, they make less power and tq than a comparable run on properly programmed ignition timing numbers.
You want the least amount of knocksums, while knowing you are at the limit where if you add another degree, you will experience knocksums. It is evident that someone crossed the line by far with ignition timing on your tune.
Originally Posted by TTP Engineering
Nice and flat, like your rod bearings when you continue to beat on 8* of ignition timing on boost spikes.
I agree with everyone here. You are getting most of the knock and knock onset at your peak torque region, around 3500 RPM. Lower your 8* around that area a degree or two and do some pulls.
Eric
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Originally Posted by TTP Engineering
Its not only an unsafe practice, it is an improper way to tune.
You have 8* programmed and throughout much of the tune your knocksums are so high that you have timing pulled, leaving your effective ignition timing numbers at a level of lacking performance. Overzealous aggressive tunes do the opposite of what you want them to do. Instead of making more power, they make less power and tq than a comparable run on properly programmed ignition timing numbers.
You want the least amount of knocksums, while knowing you are at the limit where if you add another degree, you will experience knocksums. It is evident that someone crossed the line by far with ignition timing on your tune.
You have 8* programmed and throughout much of the tune your knocksums are so high that you have timing pulled, leaving your effective ignition timing numbers at a level of lacking performance. Overzealous aggressive tunes do the opposite of what you want them to do. Instead of making more power, they make less power and tq than a comparable run on properly programmed ignition timing numbers.
You want the least amount of knocksums, while knowing you are at the limit where if you add another degree, you will experience knocksums. It is evident that someone crossed the line by far with ignition timing on your tune.
Run number two only exhibits the excessive knock counts though. The other three do not have any.
Wouldn't they be the same throughout all logs if it were "crossing" the line?
I appreciate the responses.
Originally Posted by kapolani
Okay, I can understand that.
Run number two only exhibits the excessive knock counts though. The other three do not have any.
Wouldn't they be the same throughout all logs if it were "crossing" the line?
I appreciate the responses.
Run number two only exhibits the excessive knock counts though. The other three do not have any.
Wouldn't they be the same throughout all logs if it were "crossing" the line?
I appreciate the responses.
Do you want a tune that will produce no knock for one run once in a while or do you want a tune that will produce knock-free runs, run after run?
Eric
Originally Posted by l2r99gst
There are many, many factors that can go into producing knock from one run to the next, including but not limited to, coolant temperature, intake temperature, IC heat soak, etc, etc.
Do you want a tune that will produce no knock for one run once in a while or do you want a tune that will produce knock-free runs, run after run?
Eric
Do you want a tune that will produce no knock for one run once in a while or do you want a tune that will produce knock-free runs, run after run?
Eric
Understood.
But, using your logic:
Originally Posted by l2r99gst
There are many, many factors that can go into producing knock from one run to the next, including but not limited to, coolant temperature, intake temperature, IC heat soak, etc, etc.
It would seem virtually impossible to get that perfect tune if you were to do the above. Those variables are not static, but always changing.
Originally Posted by kapolani
Eric -
Understood.
But, using your logic:
If the above is true - how can you possibly limit the above factors when tuning. Like heatsoak? Temp? etc...
It would seem virtually impossible to get that perfect tune if you were to do the above. Those variables are not static, but always changing.
Understood.
But, using your logic:
If the above is true - how can you possibly limit the above factors when tuning. Like heatsoak? Temp? etc...
It would seem virtually impossible to get that perfect tune if you were to do the above. Those variables are not static, but always changing.
For example, if you were going to simply drag the car, then you can tune very aggressively because you just need 1 good knock free run. If you were auto-crossing, then your tune will have to be much less aggressive to take these factors into account.
Also, that's why we modify our cars....to replace the weakest link in the chain. If you IC is heat soaking, you ugrade it, etc.
But, in general, you always need to leave some wiggle room for slightly changing conditions. You may be leaving a few HP on the table, but that is in exchange for a motor with a long, healthy life.
Eric
I understand you competely.
I made these four runs back to back with minimal time in between.
I would think if my tune were unsafe that I would be knocking on every pull. Not just one pull.
I'm still learning this all and appreciate your responses.
I made these four runs back to back with minimal time in between.
I would think if my tune were unsafe that I would be knocking on every pull. Not just one pull.
I'm still learning this all and appreciate your responses.
So here is my 2 cents worth after dealing with a lot of knock for a long time:
Looks like you start knocking in the low rpm range around 2500 when you do. I have observed that when this happens (and it did to me a lot) the knock will stick with you through the run.
I agree with the previous comments about the lazy tune. I think you need to focus on the 80-140 area of the timing map between 2500 and 3000. Since you do not have a wideband it will be tough to tell what is going on in the AFR department in that region, you may find that tappering down the timing especially from the 100 - 140 area will be enough.
That said, once the knock is gone in that area it will probably re appear higher up in the rpm range since you may be spooling faster and hitting higher load. And at some point I'm sure you will have to adress the crazy 8's and blend those down from 200 and up between 3000 and 4000
These are only my opinions of course so don't send me a bill if it don't work :-)
Looks like you start knocking in the low rpm range around 2500 when you do. I have observed that when this happens (and it did to me a lot) the knock will stick with you through the run.
I agree with the previous comments about the lazy tune. I think you need to focus on the 80-140 area of the timing map between 2500 and 3000. Since you do not have a wideband it will be tough to tell what is going on in the AFR department in that region, you may find that tappering down the timing especially from the 100 - 140 area will be enough.
That said, once the knock is gone in that area it will probably re appear higher up in the rpm range since you may be spooling faster and hitting higher load. And at some point I'm sure you will have to adress the crazy 8's and blend those down from 200 and up between 3000 and 4000
These are only my opinions of course so don't send me a bill if it don't work :-)
Originally Posted by nj1266
I think that running 7-8* of timing @ peak torque/boost (3500-3700 rpm) is WAY too much. The EVO 8 runs between 1-3* of timing stock in that load area and on a richer AFR no less. So your tuner leaned out the mixture AND advanced the timing to 8 in that area.
The stock tune is QUITE LEAN at peak torque/boost. Have you not seen dynos showing this over and over on multiple Evos? It starts out in the 12s, then crosses into the high 11s AFTER peak torque/boost, then it falls to 11.0 or so around 5200rpm, and after that, it goes rich as hell. The stock tune is not rich through the entire powerband - it's only extremely rich at the higher rpms. So, the tune does not go leaner AND increase timing at peak torque. It just increases timing. You guys act like this is some amazingly evil thing while ignoring the tons and tons of fast cars with this tuning style and the incredibly minute cases of failures. In fact, there has been no reported engine failure confirmed to be directly attirbuted to this tuning style, and there are far more cars tuned like this than by anyone else in the Evo market.
