Well if you are getting 6 counts of knock that tells you right away something the ecu sees is not right. 1 or 2 maybe 3 but 6 is telling you something.

 

I have a customer who just went 11.56 with a "block of 8" mail in Dyno Flash ecu at Englishtown this past weekend

PUMP GAS tune - stock turbo - stage 3 set up

I guess it just does not work

Also

I previously used same methods to get a IX to run the fastest of any IX stock turbo

also

11.56 in the 1/4 mile - this time custom tuned pump gas map - on race gas

I think there are many ways to approach a tuning situation

Many people do not understand the why or the how of what I am doing but rest assured every thing I do is done for a SPECIFIC reason

The results speak for themselves

Over 4,000 evos tuned without any tuning related engine failures and some customers have had them for 3 years and over 100,000 miles

 

Of course you do know that the stock ecu can pull the timing immediately to - 3 degress even if both maps are set the same ?

Also - to add

Many of my maps do have the low and high octane maps set the same

When they are set the same it is for a specific reason

 

A real tuner chimes in now time for thread to get shutdown lol. Thanks for input Vishnu. On a side note I think I have figured out why the block of 8's are used. It is just there to make it seem like it is a smooth timing map if you see it on a log. If you go out and log your car you will notice your car jumps around alot to diff load points. For example mine jumped from 240 at 3700 to 251 at 3800 and by 4400 to 230 and then back to 251 at 5000(something like that), well if you tune decreasing timing per load then you will see the timing numbers changing based on what load your ecu is seeing and it may be something like 4,4,4,3,4,5,5,5,6,7,6,7,8,8,8,9,10,10,10s(just an example) something like that. Does not mean that the car is knocking, where you see the 3 between the 4's and the 6 between the 7's but the load the ecu is seeing is a lil diff at that point so it changes to cell block accordingly. If the block of 8's does not knock it will always appear on a log as 8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,10,11,11,11 etc. Even though throught the rpm range the ecu is seeing variations of load as the load is jumping around throughout the rpm range it is still showing 8 degrees of timing. If it knocks which it probably will then that will be a diff story. Just my lil theory since the 8 block tuner does not care to discuss but I could be wrong.

 

I guess the point here is [b]IF[/] you can run 8* at a higher load .. logically speaking you should be able to run HIGHER timing at lower load ..

I set the different load regions to 'see' the same timing so I can have stable timing during various load points ..

ie my car jumps from 180 to 260 to 280 and at these regions mine is roughly the same timing but still no blocking ..

eg..........180..200..220..240..260..300
rpm
3500......8.......7......6......5......4......2
4000.....12......11....10......9.....8.....4
4500.....14......13....12....10....9......7
5000.....16......14....13....11....10....8

this way regardless of the boost I run, my car is running best optimal timing without knock .. really can't see the point if the above was blocked up to be all 8's my car will be running crappy at a lower boost level than what I tuned for ..

 

That was pretty much what I was getting at. A good tuner can get that effect without setting timing in the block format.

 

:-D Wow im glad i just sort of dropped in to read some of this

 

I had a similar block of 8* type map of my own design. We got along pretty good with a catback but when I went to a 3" downpipe that made it angry. I had minor knock events that pulled timing pretty consistently then added the downpipe and had BIG events (10+ counts across multiple load ranges). I am currently running about 3* at peak load just as a reference.

Now, I'm just haunted by the closed loop crossover CEL/SES demon. Getting closer everyday though.

 

This may be the case - if for example you had chosen to run 10 pounds of boost peak one day and 14 the next and then 20 psi the following day

90% of Evos I have seen with reflashes are running 20 - 21 psi peak on pump gas and using occassional race gas use at higher boost levels on higher boost

I think that too many of the evo members who choose to tune themselves are too focused on the "apperance" on a timing map and less focused on how the car is performing and how the ecu is racting to the various inputs

I judge the results of a tune by how the car runs and how repeatable and consistantly it can duplicate that performance in a real world operating environment

 

I wanted to make a few general observations

First - this goes for any tune - OCTANE and fuel quality plays a huge role. You are in WA on 92 octane no doubt and I dont use 8 degrees there - its too agressive

Secondly - this is with regard to my products

NOT ALL MY TUNES use the so called "mono block" approach which was generally focused in the 93 octane mail in reflashes

I use all KINDS of ignition timing maps for a whole host of specific reasons

IT IS NOT true to claim that all my timing maps look alike - this is particularly the case with the custom tuned cars

Modifications - fuel used - location - all effect the timing values and relationship

Here is one I am using now for cars with stock air box - 3" exhuast - MBC and walbro pump -

-5 -8 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
-5 -8 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
-5 -8 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
2 -3 -6 -10 -10 -10 -10
4 0 -2 -6 -10 -10 -10
9 7 3 0 -5 -8 -10
10 8 4 2 -1 -7 -9
12 8 5 2 -1 -2 -4
12 9 8 5 3 -1 -3
13 10 9 8 7 5 -2
15 12 10 9 8 7 3
16 14 11 10 9 8 4
17 15 11 10 9 8 4
17 15 12 10 9 8 5
17 15 13 11 10 9 6
20 16 14 13 12 11 8
23 19 18 17 15 14 10
25 20 20 19 18 15 12
25 20 20 19 18 15 12
25 20 20 19 18 15 12


Another example - in this case 93 octane - AEM intake - 3: exhuast - walbro pump MBC 92 octane

-1 -4 -7 -9 -9 -9 -9 -9
-1 -4 -7 -9 -9 -9 -9 -9
-2 -4 -7 -9 -9 -9 -9 -9
5 2 -2 -5 -9 -9 -9 -9
5 3 -1 -3 -6 -9 -9 -9
11 8 5 2 -1 -4 -7 -9
12 9 6 3 1 -3 -6 -8
13 11 8 5 3 2 -4 -7
16 10 8 6 4 2 -4 -7
19 13 8 7 6 2 1 -4
21 16 11 8 7 5 4 1
20 16 11 8 7 5 3 1
20 16 12 9 7 5 3 1
20 16 11 9 7 5 3 1
20 16 12 10 8 6 4 2
22 16 13 11 10 7 6 4
27 21 18 16 13 10 9 7
31 25 24 21 18 15 12 10
32 26 25 22 19 16 13 11
32 26 25 22 19 16 13 11


DO THESE MAPS LOOK LIKE MONO BLOCKS ???

Again - all my maps look different as they are adjusted to suit the individual car


Thirdly - the new developments in reflashing equipment and the new IX ecus have lead to new capabilities I did not have before with my primative dos based flash editor and simple logging equipment

I am proud that the maps I am making now and better than ever and offer even better performance


Thanks

 

I mean no harm by this Al, but it is pretty obvious no other tuner is gonna take up your tuning method since no one agrees with your style so you might as well explain this theory that you are hiding I am sure other tuners have their own success method which has worked fine for them over the years and could easily roll over to any other engine type other than the EVO. On the other hand this method you use, I swear if you try that on a honda it will be gone. I mean your timing numbers you use are not drastic enough to where the ecu cant compensate yet so of course it will be pretty hard to blow the car up because of the self preservation of the ecu in the evo. If you get into that timing range where the ecu cant compensate then that is a totally different story. I do not do this for a living and neither do many others, but I am sure we all would love to hear the reasoning.

 

Well some answered in what you posted, I typed above without knowing what you posted sorry.

 

Firstly, thanks for your input!! I appreciate seeing some hard numbers from a tuner.

Correct, I tune for 76 brand 92 octane. Just for clarity, I was claiming that my map was a sea of 8*'s and not anybody elses. You are right, of course, that it is too aggressive for the NW. What is sad is I burned up more $$ in gas logging and tweaking than a mail-in flash would have cost. Might be the way to go to set a baseline then tweak from there.

 

When I first got a mail in flash a while back my map was a sea of 8's also, I had a friend boost 2 more lbs than me on a manual boost controller and his map was a sea of 9's.

 

4000 x $300 avg = 1.2 million dollars earned tuning Evos. I am in the wrong business. Sorry for the