How to retune the block of 8* timing?
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,675
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From: Tri-Cities, WA // Portland, OR
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I wanted to make a few general observations
First - this goes for any tune - OCTANE and fuel quality plays a huge role. You are in WA on 92 octane no doubt and I dont use 8 degrees there - its too agressive
First - this goes for any tune - OCTANE and fuel quality plays a huge role. You are in WA on 92 octane no doubt and I dont use 8 degrees there - its too agressive
Last edited by mrfred; Oct 18, 2006 at 09:44 AM.
Keep in mind, the condition of your ignition system will also have an impact on your tune.. I've had an occasion where I changed ignition systems (went to the HKS DLI2) and actually removed 2 degrees of timing from my tune.. Some cars just behave differently.
Let me add that although I don't always agree with many tuners online about how things are done, but I can't criticize Als methods simply because I understand why its done that way. Its not something I would normally do, but I have on occasion built a new map using blocks of values that I know work, and then over quite a bit of time, refined it so it didn't have those blocks.
With that said, Tuning takes time.. Don't expect that a dyno tune will be perfect in real-world situations, hence the reason some of the tuners have their methods for doing things.
As Al mentioned in an earlier thread (About peak boost of 10psi, 14psi, etc.. with regard to a timing map that had a taper to it) This is typically how you would tune for drivability since load varies on throttle position, we're not always at WOT, however the load columns in maps don't always know that, so the best way to work on that is to set your boost controller to varying levels and work from there, then fine-tune it afterwards.
Also, give Al a little credit, he's openly discussing this stuff, and actively giving some information about the maps.. He has his reasons for doing things his way, I don't think its necessary to explain his reasoning if he doesnt want to. But appreciate that he is offering some data along with his comments.
Very few people drive at WOT all the time, and I kinda think this is really the butt of the problem, many through the mail flashes really don't always take drivability into account, and only make minimal changes in those areas to be "Safe" and still feel okay.
On a stock turbo, at 1/2 throttle, you can still hit 20psi but your pressures will generally change, however load could span across several columns though would likely be calculated lower as the actual engine load is different, as load increases, timing generally would decrease slightly. But what about part throttle acceleration at 15psi of boost, you may get into a block of timing, where in reality the timing can be higher.
This is generally the difference between tuning for drag and tuning for drivability, or tuning for road racing.. Drag assumes the highest loads all the time, driving assumes occasional high and medium load, and road racing is a conservative tune for varying loads in a high stress long duration environment. Each has its own specific requirements and needs, and tuning is always a balance between which way these are biased and in what areas.
Let me add that although I don't always agree with many tuners online about how things are done, but I can't criticize Als methods simply because I understand why its done that way. Its not something I would normally do, but I have on occasion built a new map using blocks of values that I know work, and then over quite a bit of time, refined it so it didn't have those blocks.
With that said, Tuning takes time.. Don't expect that a dyno tune will be perfect in real-world situations, hence the reason some of the tuners have their methods for doing things.
As Al mentioned in an earlier thread (About peak boost of 10psi, 14psi, etc.. with regard to a timing map that had a taper to it) This is typically how you would tune for drivability since load varies on throttle position, we're not always at WOT, however the load columns in maps don't always know that, so the best way to work on that is to set your boost controller to varying levels and work from there, then fine-tune it afterwards.
Also, give Al a little credit, he's openly discussing this stuff, and actively giving some information about the maps.. He has his reasons for doing things his way, I don't think its necessary to explain his reasoning if he doesnt want to. But appreciate that he is offering some data along with his comments.
Very few people drive at WOT all the time, and I kinda think this is really the butt of the problem, many through the mail flashes really don't always take drivability into account, and only make minimal changes in those areas to be "Safe" and still feel okay.
On a stock turbo, at 1/2 throttle, you can still hit 20psi but your pressures will generally change, however load could span across several columns though would likely be calculated lower as the actual engine load is different, as load increases, timing generally would decrease slightly. But what about part throttle acceleration at 15psi of boost, you may get into a block of timing, where in reality the timing can be higher.
This is generally the difference between tuning for drag and tuning for drivability, or tuning for road racing.. Drag assumes the highest loads all the time, driving assumes occasional high and medium load, and road racing is a conservative tune for varying loads in a high stress long duration environment. Each has its own specific requirements and needs, and tuning is always a balance between which way these are biased and in what areas.
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Keep in mind, the condition of your ignition system will also have an impact on your tune.. I've had an occasion where I changed ignition systems (went to the HKS DLI2) and actually removed 2 degrees of timing from my tune.. Some cars just behave differently.
Let me add that although I don't always agree with many tuners online about how things are done, but I can't criticize Als methods simply because I understand why its done that way. Its not something I would normally do, but I have on occasion built a new map using blocks of values that I know work, and then over quite a bit of time, refined it so it didn't have those blocks.
With that said, Tuning takes time.. Don't expect that a dyno tune will be perfect in real-world situations, hence the reason some of the tuners have their methods for doing things.
As Al mentioned in an earlier thread (About peak boost of 10psi, 14psi, etc.. with regard to a timing map that had a taper to it) This is typically how you would tune for drivability since load varies on throttle position, we're not always at WOT, however the load columns in maps don't always know that, so the best way to work on that is to set your boost controller to varying levels and work from there, then fine-tune it afterwards.
Also, give Al a little credit, he's openly discussing this stuff, and actively giving some information about the maps.. He has his reasons for doing things his way, I don't think its necessary to explain his reasoning if he doesnt want to. But appreciate that he is offering some data along with his comments.
Very few people drive at WOT all the time, and I kinda think this is really the butt of the problem, many through the mail flashes really don't always take drivability into account, and only make minimal changes in those areas to be "Safe" and still feel okay.
On a stock turbo, at 1/2 throttle, you can still hit 20psi but your pressures will generally change, however load could span across several columns though would likely be calculated lower as the actual engine load is different, as load increases, timing generally would decrease slightly. But what about part throttle acceleration at 15psi of boost, you may get into a block of timing, where in reality the timing can be higher.
This is generally the difference between tuning for drag and tuning for drivability, or tuning for road racing.. Drag assumes the highest loads all the time, driving assumes occasional high and medium load, and road racing is a conservative tune for varying loads in a high stress long duration environment. Each has its own specific requirements and needs, and tuning is always a balance between which way these are biased and in what areas.
Let me add that although I don't always agree with many tuners online about how things are done, but I can't criticize Als methods simply because I understand why its done that way. Its not something I would normally do, but I have on occasion built a new map using blocks of values that I know work, and then over quite a bit of time, refined it so it didn't have those blocks.
With that said, Tuning takes time.. Don't expect that a dyno tune will be perfect in real-world situations, hence the reason some of the tuners have their methods for doing things.
As Al mentioned in an earlier thread (About peak boost of 10psi, 14psi, etc.. with regard to a timing map that had a taper to it) This is typically how you would tune for drivability since load varies on throttle position, we're not always at WOT, however the load columns in maps don't always know that, so the best way to work on that is to set your boost controller to varying levels and work from there, then fine-tune it afterwards.
Also, give Al a little credit, he's openly discussing this stuff, and actively giving some information about the maps.. He has his reasons for doing things his way, I don't think its necessary to explain his reasoning if he doesnt want to. But appreciate that he is offering some data along with his comments.
Very few people drive at WOT all the time, and I kinda think this is really the butt of the problem, many through the mail flashes really don't always take drivability into account, and only make minimal changes in those areas to be "Safe" and still feel okay.
On a stock turbo, at 1/2 throttle, you can still hit 20psi but your pressures will generally change, however load could span across several columns though would likely be calculated lower as the actual engine load is different, as load increases, timing generally would decrease slightly. But what about part throttle acceleration at 15psi of boost, you may get into a block of timing, where in reality the timing can be higher.
This is generally the difference between tuning for drag and tuning for drivability, or tuning for road racing.. Drag assumes the highest loads all the time, driving assumes occasional high and medium load, and road racing is a conservative tune for varying loads in a high stress long duration environment. Each has its own specific requirements and needs, and tuning is always a balance between which way these are biased and in what areas.
I will say this
The first equipment we used to flash these ecus left a lot to be desired and cost us a load of money
I think I was able to work with the very primative softwear and few provided maps and create a product which worked very well and achived decent results - and for a good price
At the time - I was the first to invest significant R & D to make a series of mail in flashes for various stages of Evo modifcations and figure out how to deliver a reliable through the mail tune at a FAIR PRICE
The ECU FLASH and EVO SCAN have revolutionized the potental and capability for flashing evos
As I have used these tools my maps have evolved and now look dfifferent than before - but the cars still drive as good as ever
Also - in the old tech there was only one map which had to serve for BOTH race gas and pump gas duties - now we can switch maps and give the customer several maps to choose between for various uses
One of the biggest reasons for the block of 8 was high boost race gas use on a pump gas tune which seems to be obsolite with ecu flash
I would like to see what kind of results some of the newbie tuning experts could have obtained with a tech tom flasher and even if they could have found many of the maps which I was able to locate and test with my only tools being hard work and lots of testing
The funny part is these beginers seem to assume that I am not also using EVO SCAN and your Malabu Jack innovations to aide me - along with my heard earned Evo tuning practical experience to further refine and develop my maps
As of today my tech tom machine is a outdated paper weight and many of the greatest hits of the "block of 8" are no longer sold
Going back to the original posters question
Anyone who has a old Dyno Flash timing map and wants to update to a newer look can simply email me to recieve a free update
To reiterate - I have been flashing evos for over 3 years every day - all over the USA . The cars I have tuned - run reliably - run smooth and don't blow up and they are fast.
As I have said before - the results are very positive
Last edited by DynoFlash; Oct 18, 2006 at 09:53 AM.
Regarding what you say about part throttle Jack at 15psi of boost that is why you would reduce timing as load decreases of course so that way when you are at part throttle at 15psi it will drop back to a cell that has more timing, but less load of course. As far as the block method I guess it is ok if you go back and clean it up, but these maps are not cleaned up they are left that way, but as I can see Al has offered to clean it up for whomever has an older map prior to ecuflash which seems he is trying to make good. If the 4g63 wasnt dam near bombproof though, we could not get away with being off on timing.
Originally Posted by TTP Engineering
The funny part is you have publically degraded evoscan for its accuracy and spoke down on the logger, yet now are a firm supporter now that you realize consumers hold evoscan logs near and dear to them.
I believe they call that "flip flopping" in the political world.
For the record, since the inception of evoscan, TTP has always used this fine logger to tune Evo's to their fullest and will continue to do so.
I believe they call that "flip flopping" in the political world.
For the record, since the inception of evoscan, TTP has always used this fine logger to tune Evo's to their fullest and will continue to do so.
I have already suggested to you that I am not interested in attacking and arguing with fellow vendors
It seems you can not refrain from these type of remarks and that is your choice - however I do not need to lower myself to your level nor will I
There is a lot of dirt I can sling about all sorts of tuners - I have no energy or desire to operate my busines in that manner
To respond to your allegation that I have flip floped
The first $15 version of Evo Scan I recieved did not function properly and needed obvious corrections to the formulas and other details
At THAT TIME - I cautioned that I would not rely ONLY on evo scan as I was seeing false data
SINCE THAT TIME
Evo Scan has been revised and helpful individuals like Malabu Jack and others have released additional plug ins and details to ENHANCE the functionality of EVO SCAN
EVO SCAN has been re-relased with TWO updated versions - both of which are better than the last
SO
At this point I use both my original data logging equipment AND EVO SCAN to tune every Evo and I have found Evo Scan to be most helpful and useful as a tuning aide
I now believe that the data reported IS accurate and I am confortable relying on the values it reports
Thanks for your sunny disposition and have a great day
Last edited by DynoFlash; Oct 18, 2006 at 12:50 PM.
As the person who started this post, I would like to clarify a few things. By asking how to retune my block of numbers (even though I said "block of 8*s I actually have 7*s but put 8 because most seem to have 8*s), I was just trying to find out if there was a better way to tune my maps for power and safety.
As I posted earlier--in contrast to some--I have not shown any knock counts above 3. That is not to say that some have not shown higher knock counts with the block of 8s or 7s or on occasion I may be hitting cells that would cause knock that I have not logged.
My intent was not to bash Al as my car has been fast and reliable to date. I like many on this board are intrigued on how to get the most out of our cars (safely as possible of course) and the “art and science” of ECU tuning.
I will take Al up on his offer to redo my map. I will be doing some dyno pulls in the next few weeks. I will load the before and after maps and post the dyno pulls. It should be interesting.
As I posted earlier--in contrast to some--I have not shown any knock counts above 3. That is not to say that some have not shown higher knock counts with the block of 8s or 7s or on occasion I may be hitting cells that would cause knock that I have not logged.
My intent was not to bash Al as my car has been fast and reliable to date. I like many on this board are intrigued on how to get the most out of our cars (safely as possible of course) and the “art and science” of ECU tuning.
I will take Al up on his offer to redo my map. I will be doing some dyno pulls in the next few weeks. I will load the before and after maps and post the dyno pulls. It should be interesting.
As of now I still run flat timing because it works well for my driving and doesn't knock (it finished my clutch off though). But the concern with peak timing and bottom end stress bugs me.
I need some proof before I go and change it however because 24 psi and 8* at 3900RPM with a fast spooling 16G feels good. I'll just change the oil every 2000 miles and catch the PVCC oil vapors just to make sure
I need some proof before I go and change it however because 24 psi and 8* at 3900RPM with a fast spooling 16G feels good. I'll just change the oil every 2000 miles and catch the PVCC oil vapors just to make sure
I'm just going to make a couple of comments here. First, although I don't tune with "blocks" I'm not so sure I see what the issue is fully. If the cars are running good and the motor is staying in the car and the car isn't pulling timing....what's the issue? If it is pulling timing then pull timing out. It's not a difficult concept here.
But just a few things to note.
I've got copies of some maps from cars that are running as much as 14* at peak torque and ramping up to 25-26* on the big end on 91 octane. I didn't tune these maps but they do not "log" knocksums or appear to be pulling timing in the datalogs. I've pulled maps from the "block" cars and these too respond in the similar fashion. They run very well and make decent power. Usually these maps just run a little too rich for my blood but it's not a custom tuned map, I can fully understand why a car would be rich when the tuner is in a completely different state/environment/weather/etc. I have also pulled datalogs from 5 completely stock cars now including 2 IX MR's. These have logged knocksums in the 12's on the big end!!! You mean to tell me that is really going on with a factory Mistubishi map??
So here's my point. If you don't like the map, fix it, or take it to someone you trust to fix it. If a tuner had a reputation of losing motors I think it would be quite obvious to most by now and as a result he would no longer be in buisness. Do I agree with how Al tunes? No, but he has his reasons and I have seen it work on cars so I'm not going to publically ridicule him or attack his means of income. I think someone who tries to build their reputation by attacking others is both desperate and childish. I'm sure both tuners have a reason for what they are doing and they are both producing results so good for them and congrats to both of you. But let your work speak for itself and not your keyboard. Sorry to get involved in this but I get tired of hoping on this forum looking for information or just excited to see what people are getting in terms of results only to come across countless threads of people trying to publically shoot down one another. It gets old.
/Rant....Back on topic...if you are reading knocksums with your "blocks" pull timing until YOU are satisfied with YOUR cars results.
But just a few things to note.
I've got copies of some maps from cars that are running as much as 14* at peak torque and ramping up to 25-26* on the big end on 91 octane. I didn't tune these maps but they do not "log" knocksums or appear to be pulling timing in the datalogs. I've pulled maps from the "block" cars and these too respond in the similar fashion. They run very well and make decent power. Usually these maps just run a little too rich for my blood but it's not a custom tuned map, I can fully understand why a car would be rich when the tuner is in a completely different state/environment/weather/etc. I have also pulled datalogs from 5 completely stock cars now including 2 IX MR's. These have logged knocksums in the 12's on the big end!!! You mean to tell me that is really going on with a factory Mistubishi map??
So here's my point. If you don't like the map, fix it, or take it to someone you trust to fix it. If a tuner had a reputation of losing motors I think it would be quite obvious to most by now and as a result he would no longer be in buisness. Do I agree with how Al tunes? No, but he has his reasons and I have seen it work on cars so I'm not going to publically ridicule him or attack his means of income. I think someone who tries to build their reputation by attacking others is both desperate and childish. I'm sure both tuners have a reason for what they are doing and they are both producing results so good for them and congrats to both of you. But let your work speak for itself and not your keyboard. Sorry to get involved in this but I get tired of hoping on this forum looking for information or just excited to see what people are getting in terms of results only to come across countless threads of people trying to publically shoot down one another. It gets old.
/Rant....Back on topic...if you are reading knocksums with your "blocks" pull timing until YOU are satisfied with YOUR cars results.
Originally Posted by Dieman
I've got copies of some maps from cars that are running as much as 14* at peak torque and ramping up to 25-26* on the big end on 91 octane.
Not an Evo right?
Originally Posted by C6C6CH3vo
Subaru,
Not an Evo right?
Not an Evo right?
I wish I could say yes, but nope. It was a car that came to me from California. It's not running those numbers now mind you but it was when it came in. And this kid drove the peewod out of it before bringing it in. It came from a VERY well respected tuner on this site too but it lived so I'm not going to hate...just sit in amazement that it worked at all
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
-5 -8 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
-5 -8 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
-5 -8 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
2 -3 -6 -10 -10 -10 -10
4 0 -2 -6 -10 -10 -10
9 7 3 0 -5 -8 -10
10 8 4 2 -1 -7 -9
12 8 5 2 -1 -2 -4
12 9 8 5 3 -1 -3
13 10 9 8 7 5 -2
15 12 10 9 8 7 3
16 14 11 10 9 8 4
17 15 11 10 9 8 4
17 15 12 10 9 8 5
17 15 13 11 10 9 6
20 16 14 13 12 11 8
23 19 18 17 15 14 10
25 20 20 19 18 15 12
25 20 20 19 18 15 12
25 20 20 19 18 15 12
-5 -8 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
-5 -8 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
2 -3 -6 -10 -10 -10 -10
4 0 -2 -6 -10 -10 -10
9 7 3 0 -5 -8 -10
10 8 4 2 -1 -7 -9
12 8 5 2 -1 -2 -4
12 9 8 5 3 -1 -3
13 10 9 8 7 5 -2
15 12 10 9 8 7 3
16 14 11 10 9 8 4
17 15 11 10 9 8 4
17 15 12 10 9 8 5
17 15 13 11 10 9 6
20 16 14 13 12 11 8
23 19 18 17 15 14 10
25 20 20 19 18 15 12
25 20 20 19 18 15 12
25 20 20 19 18 15 12
Originally Posted by Dieman
I wish I could say yes, but nope. It was a car that came to me from California. It's not running those numbers now mind you but it was when it came in. And this kid drove the peewod out of it before bringing it in. It came from a VERY well respected tuner on this site too but it lived so I'm not going to hate...just sit in amazement that it worked at all
Al updated my map just before. I took him up on his offer. It feels good but it felt good before with the "8 block" I really dont feel the difference might be a little better. It still pulls way hard. Also I logged it I get 0 knock at all. So I dont know? I guess its all good. The real tune comes next month after the cams
Originally Posted by Dieman
I'm just going to make a couple of comments here. First, although I don't tune with "blocks" I'm not so sure I see what the issue is fully. If the cars are running good and the motor is staying in the car and the car isn't pulling timing....what's the issue? If it is pulling timing then pull timing out. It's not a difficult concept here.
But just a few things to note.
I've got copies of some maps from cars that are running as much as 14* at peak torque and ramping up to 25-26* on the big end on 91 octane. I didn't tune these maps but they do not "log" knocksums or appear to be pulling timing in the datalogs. I've pulled maps from the "block" cars and these too respond in the similar fashion. They run very well and make decent power. Usually these maps just run a little too rich for my blood but it's not a custom tuned map, I can fully understand why a car would be rich when the tuner is in a completely different state/environment/weather/etc. I have also pulled datalogs from 5 completely stock cars now including 2 IX MR's. These have logged knocksums in the 12's on the big end!!! You mean to tell me that is really going on with a factory Mistubishi map??
So here's my point. If you don't like the map, fix it, or take it to someone you trust to fix it. If a tuner had a reputation of losing motors I think it would be quite obvious to most by now and as a result he would no longer be in buisness. Do I agree with how Al tunes? No, but he has his reasons and I have seen it work on cars so I'm not going to publically ridicule him or attack his means of income. I think someone who tries to build their reputation by attacking others is both desperate and childish. I'm sure both tuners have a reason for what they are doing and they are both producing results so good for them and congrats to both of you. But let your work speak for itself and not your keyboard. Sorry to get involved in this but I get tired of hoping on this forum looking for information or just excited to see what people are getting in terms of results only to come across countless threads of people trying to publically shoot down one another. It gets old.
/Rant....Back on topic...if you are reading knocksums with your "blocks" pull timing until YOU are satisfied with YOUR cars results.
But just a few things to note.
I've got copies of some maps from cars that are running as much as 14* at peak torque and ramping up to 25-26* on the big end on 91 octane. I didn't tune these maps but they do not "log" knocksums or appear to be pulling timing in the datalogs. I've pulled maps from the "block" cars and these too respond in the similar fashion. They run very well and make decent power. Usually these maps just run a little too rich for my blood but it's not a custom tuned map, I can fully understand why a car would be rich when the tuner is in a completely different state/environment/weather/etc. I have also pulled datalogs from 5 completely stock cars now including 2 IX MR's. These have logged knocksums in the 12's on the big end!!! You mean to tell me that is really going on with a factory Mistubishi map??
So here's my point. If you don't like the map, fix it, or take it to someone you trust to fix it. If a tuner had a reputation of losing motors I think it would be quite obvious to most by now and as a result he would no longer be in buisness. Do I agree with how Al tunes? No, but he has his reasons and I have seen it work on cars so I'm not going to publically ridicule him or attack his means of income. I think someone who tries to build their reputation by attacking others is both desperate and childish. I'm sure both tuners have a reason for what they are doing and they are both producing results so good for them and congrats to both of you. But let your work speak for itself and not your keyboard. Sorry to get involved in this but I get tired of hoping on this forum looking for information or just excited to see what people are getting in terms of results only to come across countless threads of people trying to publically shoot down one another. It gets old.
/Rant....Back on topic...if you are reading knocksums with your "blocks" pull timing until YOU are satisfied with YOUR cars results.
