I only drive in 3rd gear
Dec 26, 2006, 05:48 PM
#16
I like your signature...I hope you are not busting... 
j/k
My understanding is that the car runs a tad richer in the higher gears because the ECU has more time to respond to load changes...I believe Ivey and/or Jestr posted about this awhile ago....I still think most are running way too rich on this site, but that is a whole different subject.
I'll PM you my AFRs in a week. Good luck
j/kMy understanding is that the car runs a tad richer in the higher gears because the ECU has more time to respond to load changes...I believe Ivey and/or Jestr posted about this awhile ago....I still think most are running way too rich on this site, but that is a whole different subject.
I'll PM you my AFRs in a week. Good luck
Dec 26, 2006, 06:26 PM
#19
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Eh. It was a 6 year long relationship. I still had to.
I've seen very slow responding processors like the SAFC and stuff...but definately not factory ECU's.
It may be a loadcalc function problem in evoscan though.
Dec 27, 2006, 10:06 AM
#20
Who's Shiv, and why do we trust him? Is there any reasoning behind his explanation? Slow ECU response could be a reason but how realistic is that?
I've seen very slow responding processors like the SAFC and stuff...but definately not factory ECU's.
I've seen very slow responding processors like the SAFC and stuff...but definately not factory ECU's.
Shiv @ http://www.vishnutuning.com/
Dec 27, 2006, 12:43 PM
#22
For me 3rd gear is all I'm concerned with, first and second are leaner but the load intensity and duration are much less so everything just just works out with a leaner burn.
As for forth gear - I really never plan to drive WOT at those speeds on public roads anyhow. Once I make it to a 1/4 track however, I'll just have to live with it rich from 90 mph and up while I'm in 4th
As for forth gear - I really never plan to drive WOT at those speeds on public roads anyhow. Once I make it to a 1/4 track however, I'll just have to live with it rich from 90 mph and up while I'm in 4th
Dec 27, 2006, 04:51 PM
#23
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Hi
The changing load theory should be fairly easy to prove, If you equalise all the load cells for a given RPM ( something safe like 11) then the AFR shouldn't change when shiffting up. Mosy mapps are scaled to get richer as the load increases and the ECU will interopulate between load cells.
MB
The changing load theory should be fairly easy to prove, If you equalise all the load cells for a given RPM ( something safe like 11) then the AFR shouldn't change when shiffting up. Mosy mapps are scaled to get richer as the load increases and the ECU will interopulate between load cells.
MB
Dec 27, 2006, 05:39 PM
#24
"Shiv Pathak, established himself as an industry leader in the design and tuning of high performance engine management systems. Having contracted his engine tuning skills to OEMs such as General Motors and Toyota, several professional road race/rally teams, numerous aftermarket tuning houses and hundreds of private individuals, Pathak carries with him a wealth of real world engine management know-how. This unique knowledge lead him to his next vocational area where he continues to freelance as a technical writer (product reviews, technical analysis, long-term project car testing, etc,.) for numerous automotive trade journals. With one foot firmly planted at the leading edge of industry technology and the other standing at the center of aftermarket street and race performance, Pathak has developed a reputation for bringing high-end engine control systems to the masses. Along with that, he has earned a reputation for unwavering customer support and an unblemished track record in the engine management industry."
Last edited by Evo_Jay; Dec 27, 2006 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Correct spellin
Dec 28, 2006, 09:03 AM
#26
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Hi
The changing load theory should be fairly easy to prove, If you equalise all the load cells for a given RPM ( something safe like 11) then the AFR shouldn't change when shiffting up. Mosy mapps are scaled to get richer as the load increases and the ECU will interopulate between load cells.
MB
The changing load theory should be fairly easy to prove, If you equalise all the load cells for a given RPM ( something safe like 11) then the AFR shouldn't change when shiffting up. Mosy mapps are scaled to get richer as the load increases and the ECU will interopulate between load cells.
MB
I think it's really a function issue in evoscan at this point.
This is why you should maybe listen to him...
"Shiv Pathak, established himself as an industry leader in the design and tuning of high performance engine management systems. Having contracted his engine tuning skills to OEMs such as General Motors and Toyota, several professional road race/rally teams, numerous aftermarket tuning houses and hundreds of private individuals, Pathak carries with him a wealth of real world engine management know-how. This unique knowledge lead him to his next vocational area where he continues to freelance as a technical writer (product reviews, technical analysis, long-term project car testing, etc,.) for numerous automotive trade journals. With one foot firmly planted at the leading edge of industry technology and the other standing at the center of aftermarket street and race performance, Pathak has developed a reputation for bringing high-end engine control systems to the masses. Along with that, he has earned a reputation for unwavering customer support and an unblemished track record in the engine management industry."
"Shiv Pathak, established himself as an industry leader in the design and tuning of high performance engine management systems. Having contracted his engine tuning skills to OEMs such as General Motors and Toyota, several professional road race/rally teams, numerous aftermarket tuning houses and hundreds of private individuals, Pathak carries with him a wealth of real world engine management know-how. This unique knowledge lead him to his next vocational area where he continues to freelance as a technical writer (product reviews, technical analysis, long-term project car testing, etc,.) for numerous automotive trade journals. With one foot firmly planted at the leading edge of industry technology and the other standing at the center of aftermarket street and race performance, Pathak has developed a reputation for bringing high-end engine control systems to the masses. Along with that, he has earned a reputation for unwavering customer support and an unblemished track record in the engine management industry."
It's my pet peeve. I need to know why and if I can't understand or rationalize it then I have to question it.
A lot of people say things in passing or off the top of their head. That doesn't mean that there is any sort of data to back it up.
But thanks for posting his background. I didn't know who he was.
Dec 28, 2006, 09:25 AM
#27
Your best not taking anything as gospel, as anyone can make mistakes. And learning is all part of the game.
I agree if you can tune in 4th gear, you might have better results..
Calculated load is a "Strange animal" as it seems there are more factors that affect the IPW that can result in reporting a different calculated load than what the car actually is running in.
Look at the load sites, if you tune in 3rd gear, when you tune in 4th, look at one cell to the right, and for second, look at a few cells to the left, and tune those too..
Tuning isn't about isolating specific cells and making adjustment, but the relationship to cells around it too.. This is what allows a tune to maintain a stable AFR.
Also, keep in mind that if your load site is 250, your cell to the left is 230 and to the right is 270, the range from 240-260 is interpolated, if your load is 260 exactly, it'll be the exact number you put in, but if its 245 it'll likely be somewhere in between the adjacent cell, and the current cell.. Same thing with RPM, if your at 6500rpm exactly, it'll be the value, but if its between two cells, it will likely be interpolated..
I agree if you can tune in 4th gear, you might have better results..
Calculated load is a "Strange animal" as it seems there are more factors that affect the IPW that can result in reporting a different calculated load than what the car actually is running in.
Look at the load sites, if you tune in 3rd gear, when you tune in 4th, look at one cell to the right, and for second, look at a few cells to the left, and tune those too..
Tuning isn't about isolating specific cells and making adjustment, but the relationship to cells around it too.. This is what allows a tune to maintain a stable AFR.
Also, keep in mind that if your load site is 250, your cell to the left is 230 and to the right is 270, the range from 240-260 is interpolated, if your load is 260 exactly, it'll be the exact number you put in, but if its 245 it'll likely be somewhere in between the adjacent cell, and the current cell.. Same thing with RPM, if your at 6500rpm exactly, it'll be the value, but if its between two cells, it will likely be interpolated..
Last edited by MalibuJack; Dec 28, 2006 at 09:29 AM.
Dec 28, 2006, 09:28 AM
#28
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Your best not taking anything as gospel, as anyone can make mistakes. And learning is all part of the game.
I agree if you can tune in 4th gear, you might have better results..
Calculated load is a "Strange animal" as it seems there are more factors that affect the IPW that can result in reporting a different calculated load than what the car actually is running in.
Look at the load sites, if you tune in 3rd gear, when you tune in 4th, look at one cell to the right, and for second, look at a few cells to the left, and tune those too..
Tuning isn't about isolating specific cells and making adjustment, but the relationship to cells around it too.. This is what allows a tune to maintain a stable AFR.
I agree if you can tune in 4th gear, you might have better results..
Calculated load is a "Strange animal" as it seems there are more factors that affect the IPW that can result in reporting a different calculated load than what the car actually is running in.
Look at the load sites, if you tune in 3rd gear, when you tune in 4th, look at one cell to the right, and for second, look at a few cells to the left, and tune those too..
Tuning isn't about isolating specific cells and making adjustment, but the relationship to cells around it too.. This is what allows a tune to maintain a stable AFR.
Yeah at this point I think I have 3rd gear tuned pretty much as accurate as I can get it.
However, there are limitations in resolution. Tuning in 500rpm blocks and load values every 20 units is difficult. I've learned that you pretty much have to make educated guesses in many surrounding cells in order to get very specific areas to the AF that you'd like.
Anyway, yeah I'll start logging and tuning more in 4th and see what happens. Thanks.
Dec 28, 2006, 09:30 AM
#29
FWIW timing is a little different since we can only make 1 degree steps, and I'm pretty sure the ECU only works in 1 degree steps.
BUT, Timing has a direct affect on AFR also, as more timing means more time for fuel to burn, resulting in a different AFR even though the AFR value in the map is the same at two adjacent cells.
BUT, Timing has a direct affect on AFR also, as more timing means more time for fuel to burn, resulting in a different AFR even though the AFR value in the map is the same at two adjacent cells.
Dec 28, 2006, 09:33 AM
#30
Thanks for the advice.
Yeah at this point I think I have 3rd gear tuned pretty much as accurate as I can get it.
However, there are limitations in resolution. Tuning in 500rpm blocks and load values every 20 units is difficult. I've learned that you pretty much have to make educated guesses in many surrounding cells in order to get very specific areas to the AF that you'd like.
Anyway, yeah I'll start logging and tuning more in 4th and see what happens. Thanks.
Yeah at this point I think I have 3rd gear tuned pretty much as accurate as I can get it.
However, there are limitations in resolution. Tuning in 500rpm blocks and load values every 20 units is difficult. I've learned that you pretty much have to make educated guesses in many surrounding cells in order to get very specific areas to the AF that you'd like.
Anyway, yeah I'll start logging and tuning more in 4th and see what happens. Thanks.
The values between cells are interpolated if the number isnt an exact hit.. So if the trend is a few points between, then you tune the adjacent cells accordingly to match the "Curve" as close as possible (its likely slightly curved, where an interpolation between both points is linear)