Ok, but you've already spent $300 between a MAF and translator box, and that didn't work satisfactorily. If it had, you wouldn't be posting any complaints.

You may have an issue in spending $3XX for something that works, but like Malibujack, I feel radically reprogramming the ECU creates potentially greater issues than it resolves. I'd rather spend a little for something that is simple and works, than save a little for something that requires major surgery to the ECU - something no one here completely controls or understands.

Exactly.

Convenience and simplicity carries value. Complexity and uncertainty detract from value.

 

Sorry, unfortunately I can't see the pictures posted due to filters at my work.

Is the PMAS sensor a voltage or freqeuncy output? The Ford sensors are voltage, so a Ford replacement sensor hooking directly to an ECU looking for freqeuncy is throwing me off a bit.

The transfer function from what I have found simply looks to be a look-up table of voltage vs. airflow.

 

I don't know how antilag_200's PMAS setup gets the Ford-type sensor working. I am just as in the dark on that as you are.

 

I am on my way to their shop right now, so I will report back on a lot of the questions to the best of my ability.

 

That would be helpful.

The #1 question is how is it that you are replacing a MAF that generates a signal in frequency vs one that generates a signal in voltage. Those two don't seem to fit.

 

i can answer that...its just their proprietary translator thats more compact and looks like one unit/maf. correct me if i'm wrong. its still a piggyback, but it works/just like the MAF translator. i'm sure it has its quirks too.

i respect all the questions about avoiding complexity by coding, but i'm content with running a simple intake pipe/simple filter and an not needing maf adapters coupled to mafs coupled to translators coupled to pipes while each piece has different sizing/issues. full SD was my answer but is a ways away and not close to perfect.

i have no problem with messy ECU code if it works. its in the rom lol and i don't see it. it can be cleaned up later anyways (which i haven't really done for the map to maf code/lazy/have to work lol--dont worry its not buggy)problematic/buggy/wrong/etc code is bad i agree.

tephra/mrfred/bez/jcsbanks/acamus/etc have all figured out a while ago that our ECU is vastly overbuilt. we can utilize it to our advantage. to reiterate, i only showed interest in this because [one] of my goals is to simplify my engine bay. i also plan/still use the AFM/MAS/MAF in the stock location/pre turbo. i have no need of running a VTA BOV heh j/k. others have REAL high HP monsters that could really use a flow tuned MAF or whatever done by a reputable company to have overlays of what was and is/etc. i'm always the one that wants to prove that wrong, though.

what a thread..didn't mean to stir anything up or step on toes. Ted B. slashing at the competition with multi-part answers/analyses. thats why i'm trying to type with no apparent paragraph breaks so it hard for him to dissect my post lol.

 

According to the incomplete information I had gotten from PMAS,

the translator box is no longer required simply because there is one pin that outputs a voltage, and another pin (or one in the same depending on programming) would output frequency. what you would be missing is a wiring harness that went between the stock MAF connector and the new sensor, including a pigtail for the IAT thrown in.

My earlier Proflow setup is roughly equivalent to that, I have a plug and play connector that is wired to an earlier translator box, which connects to a Ford IAT sensor and a Ford Cobra MAF sensor insert which is mounted to a saddle machined to fit onto my Buschur upper intercooler pipe.

This is where my info is inconsistent from what I have gotten on different calls I've made to them. On one occasion, I was told that everything was integrated into that one sensor, on another occasion, there is a new Calibrator device which outputs both MafV and MafHz and the signal you choose depends on what your ECU requires.

The ultimate solution is a programmable sensor that has the calibration and signal output configurable, and its entirely standalone and left alone after the initial configuration, as the signal output will ultimately match the ECU.

Essentially, that is what I've been running since 2003, only the electronics I'm stuck with are Analog and the output is generated by an oscillator/crystal circuit. The IAT Sensor output appears to be tweaked slightly, but it doesn't appear to be necessary as I've bypassed the box and hooked the air temp sensor up directly in the past and it worked essentially the same.

My setup has changed a little since this was originally photographed:



However, I can point out the details in this photo..

On the intake tube, at the top about 1" to the left of the air filter, is a grommet and connector for a Ford AIT sensor, in this case its one from a Crown Victoria, but it appears that their all the same for the most part. The Machined block on the Intercooler pipe is the saddle to place and align the Ford Cobra sensor, its mounted horizontal instead of vertical, This was done to reduce turbulence slightly, but additionally condensation from accumulating on the sensor won't gather at the very bottom but wick its way back off the sensor. This is one of the key issues people have on blowthrough setups is the accumulation of moisture, and the time it takes for the sensor to get to operating temperature because of it resulting in drivability issues if the car had been sitting for awhile. I still have a few cold-start drivability issues, but after putting a stock MAF back on the car, I had determined the were more a factor of having colder plugs, large injectors, and lower airflow due to a cold and large GT35r turbo.

 

Ok, Let me try and clear up some confusion.. The first Karman conversion that PMAS built (the one on antilag's eclipse) used a ford style sensor with a greatly extended airflow range, but was still 0-5V mass. We then had a box that used a ford style temp sensor and a baro sensor. the first thing the box did was use these two sensors to convert the 0-5V mass signal to a 0-5V volumetric signal (used temp and baro signals to calculate them out of the mass signal) Then the box converted this 0-5V signal to a liner HZ signal the replicated the stock dsm maf, but there was a knob that would globally adjust this signal down (larger injectors). So you now have a ford sensor acting exactly like a stock dsm maf. you are now missing the stock baro and temp input. The box now took the ford style AIT signal from our sensor and converted it to act exactly like the stock dsm AIT. We then took the signal from our Baro sensor and converted it to act exactly like the stock dsm baro and sent these two signals back to the ecu on their original wires. so to understand it correctly our temp and baro sensors served two purposes.

This method was very expensive and complex so we came up with a new idea.
The second revision (the one on antilags evo) we completely eliminated the first conversion box and all the sensors. We then flowed the stock maf at a fixed air density 80degrees and sea level for baro. We then used a box to only convert the 0-5V mass signal directly to a linear HZ mass value. we then sent fixed 80 degree temp and sea level baro values back to the ecu on the stock inputs, and let the maf do the rest. The nice thing about the new way is that all the inital converson from the 1000 hp ford style maf is done in the background. Now all you have to do is pick the output maf transfer function and scaling you want to use and the setup outputs that. 1G curve 550cc, 800cc... or evo curve 560cc, 850cc 1200cc etc.

Obviously the first method is completely the Ideal way to do this conversion in my mind, but there is also in theroy no reason the second method shouldn't work just as well for an automotive application where mafs are concerned.

 

That tells us that this setup is essentially a MAFT setup, but uses a Ford sensor instead of a GM. And like a MAFT setup, the MAF accuracy and tuning is subject to variance with temperature (and/or altitude) swings because there is no IAT or BARO adjustment capability.

Back to square one.

 

As far as using the stock suby maf, stock ford or X maf .. what's the point.. you still have to do the same things to convert them but you are very limited with range. Even if you use a hotwire maf that outputs HZ you still have to convert it from an exponetial curve to a liner one, the V-Hz is the most simple part of the whole deal. Malibujack, I know we've promised the "gadget" to solve everything, but we have so many projects goin on that its hard to finish them all. I can, however, tell you more details about it, if it ever gets done. It will be the small HPX slot style maf. THis maf will have a built in MCU. You can install the maf in any size blowthrough or draw through tube or maf you want. This maf has a very small footprint if you have seen them you will know what I'm talking about. This maf will have end user software that will allow you to type in any output maf X-fer function you want the maf to have 0-5V 5-0V HZ 2-7V (bosch) linear or exponential hotwire, vain, karman etc.. it will also allow you to output ant AIT X-fer funtion and BARO X-fer function. It will have seprate windows for dataloggong, real time adjustment and tuning.

 

Not entirely. The GM maf is terrible at high horsepowers and when the air density gets too far from the norm. Especially blowthrough when the temps get up there. Those mafs will no longer give a predictable air mass output. That's why GM ecu's rely highly on the MAP AIT and VE tables when in any other condition than very low loads. Thats why we did not build ours around those sensors. It's also why almost every auto company has switched over to Hitachi, denso, bosch and siemens mafs. Even GM does not use them anymore, they've switched to the hitachi sensor we use. Ask any gm tuner and they will tell you that most GM's pretty much run SD at W.O.T. Heck, most of the fast guys unplug their mafs..

 

Hope that answered a lot of your questions guys, I can provide pictures of my tuner box on the evo, so that you guys can take a look at that if you like.

 

awdgsx91, thank you for clearing things up.

To me, it seems like we would be at the same end result for this particular application. You intend to do all the work in the MAF, making it a universal product that can be setup for virtually any car. I am suggesting doing the conversion in our ECU directly. Both method has it's benefits and obviously as a vendor, your method would provide a much larger market.

I have a question about your HPX MAF. It sounds like you are allowing the sensor output to be scaled almost however you like? Thus a 3" tube MAF can be scaled to read from say 30lb/min = 5V to 70 lb/min = 5V? Or for our purposes, you could scale so 30lb/min =1600 HZ or 70lb/min = 1600Hz and so forth?

Also, the HPX sensor has an IAT output available, correct?

 

Thanks, that was the info I was trying to remember. When I spoke with you at the time you were trying to find me some sort of electronics to replace the hardware that got damaged. As it turns out, the older unit I am using does indeed seem to be the same box that Antilag was using on his eclipse, which I guess does have a Baro sensor of some sort. I'm just waiting on that completely integrated sensor as I'm pretty excited about upgrading my hardware with something digital and programmable.

 

Poor assumption. I have an ECU+ as my logging device, which also happens to have a built in GM MAS translator inside. The purchase of a GM MAS was only like $80. You will see that my objective has not changed.

Also as you can see from awdgsx91's post the GM was a bad fit for blowthrough from the start. He is 100% right. Works great for around town but for racing its crap.

To be fair, it looks like this "new compact" design PMAS proposes will be a great fit for nearly all... but in tradition of the ecuflash forum I, like many others I'm sure, would like to acheive the same thing for much less buck a little programming, a new sensor and perhaps a custom connector. Some of us can pay to play. Some of us can't...