got new flash uploaded...
Jun 6, 2006, 08:40 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by chrisw
I think my LC-1 WB sensor recommended that it be placed 8" to 10" from the turbo, which in all practical terms means installing it right before the cat.
But like you said, all you will do is shorten the life of the sensor. If you are OK with that, well... umm... ok...
But like you said, all you will do is shorten the life of the sensor. If you are OK with that, well... umm... ok...
Jun 6, 2006, 09:01 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by EiEVO
1. Im not an idiot
2. Ruin eflash....? LOL
3. I install aem UEGOs just about daily..... I have been to hawthorne, CA for aem EMS class and i have been using AEM EMS for about 3 yrs now. Look up on their dealer search. Extreme Imports, Springfield mo. yea. not that it matters to anyone on here but i own the shop. As for the wideband...I think they say 1.5" or so but thats so they dont have issues with the heat killing the sensors. It woulnt be incorrect with it there. But i have never had issues as long as its about a foot or so after the turbo. Im new to the evo scene and thought i would give AL's experience and ecuflash a try. Its not anything like a full stand alone like the ems so i dont want to jump right in on my $30,000 car.. I thought i would give it a whirl and see what i come up with with his flash. . . And in no way shape or form am i mad or upset with al. The only reason why i posted this question for everyone else to read is to see if their flash has their vehicle reading above a 16.5 a/f/r at idle. I know it wont hurt the car just from what im used to: it dont like it and i would prefer to have it a little fatter. Thats all..But if everone elses a/f/r was this lean then i suppose i should believe that its his way of tuning. No big deal...I will just have to mess with the software a little to fatten it up a bit. I havent even looked thu the software and such. Its my daily driver and i perfered to keep the stock ecu and mods pretty simple so the stand alone isnt a must have situation.
I suppose i will learn the software and tune it myself. No big deal. I expected everyone to jump me on this.
2. Ruin eflash....? LOL
3. I install aem UEGOs just about daily..... I have been to hawthorne, CA for aem EMS class and i have been using AEM EMS for about 3 yrs now. Look up on their dealer search. Extreme Imports, Springfield mo. yea. not that it matters to anyone on here but i own the shop. As for the wideband...I think they say 1.5" or so but thats so they dont have issues with the heat killing the sensors. It woulnt be incorrect with it there. But i have never had issues as long as its about a foot or so after the turbo. Im new to the evo scene and thought i would give AL's experience and ecuflash a try. Its not anything like a full stand alone like the ems so i dont want to jump right in on my $30,000 car.. I thought i would give it a whirl and see what i come up with with his flash. . . And in no way shape or form am i mad or upset with al. The only reason why i posted this question for everyone else to read is to see if their flash has their vehicle reading above a 16.5 a/f/r at idle. I know it wont hurt the car just from what im used to: it dont like it and i would prefer to have it a little fatter. Thats all..But if everone elses a/f/r was this lean then i suppose i should believe that its his way of tuning. No big deal...I will just have to mess with the software a little to fatten it up a bit. I havent even looked thu the software and such. Its my daily driver and i perfered to keep the stock ecu and mods pretty simple so the stand alone isnt a must have situation.
I suppose i will learn the software and tune it myself. No big deal. I expected everyone to jump me on this.
I don't care if you own a shop. That really doesn't prove you know what you are doing. In fact your posts point in the opposite direction. With 3 years of AEM ems experience I would have guess you could make your own base map. Instead you pay for one and come crying clueless on here. My guess is your car wasnt even running right before the flash..But undoubtedly you'll say "oh it was perfect"
AEM states: "Mount the 02 sensor in the exhaust system at least 18 inches downstream from the exhaust port. If you anticipate high egts (over 800c), run a turbocharger, run at high RPM's for an extended period of time, or plan on runnng leaded race fuel then you must mount the sensor at least 36 inches downstream of the exhaust port as all of these can cause the sensor to overheat"
I guess unless you tune real fast, that sensor is going to be subject to those extremes 6" from the turbo's outlet. But hey, you are the one who owns a shop right? The guy who's been to classes on EMS, but is afraid to try his skills on his own vehicle......................
Jun 7, 2006, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by EiEVO
well got my new flash loaded and still have a lean idle...lean like 16.8+ off the scale. And before the engine is wam it goes lean if under 15% throttle and cuts out. Im not dumb when it comes to altering the fuel maps but on the other hand its not my place to be especailly when i paid for the flash.
Whats everyone's inputs or suggestions?
Whats everyone's inputs or suggestions?
Jun 7, 2006, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabriel J
Let's see.
I don't care if you own a shop. That really doesn't prove you know what you are doing. In fact your posts point in the opposite direction. With 3 years of AEM ems experience I would have guess you could make your own base map. Instead you pay for one and come crying clueless on here. My guess is your car wasnt even running right before the flash..But undoubtedly you'll say "oh it was perfect"
AEM states: "Mount the 02 sensor in the exhaust system at least 18 inches downstream from the exhaust port. If you anticipate high egts (over 800c), run a turbocharger, run at high RPM's for an extended period of time, or plan on runnng leaded race fuel then you must mount the sensor at least 36 inches downstream of the exhaust port as all of these can cause the sensor to overheat"
I guess unless you tune real fast, that sensor is going to be subject to those extremes 6" from the turbo's outlet. But hey, you are the one who owns a shop right? The guy who's been to classes on EMS, but is afraid to try his skills on his own vehicle......................
I don't care if you own a shop. That really doesn't prove you know what you are doing. In fact your posts point in the opposite direction. With 3 years of AEM ems experience I would have guess you could make your own base map. Instead you pay for one and come crying clueless on here. My guess is your car wasnt even running right before the flash..But undoubtedly you'll say "oh it was perfect"
AEM states: "Mount the 02 sensor in the exhaust system at least 18 inches downstream from the exhaust port. If you anticipate high egts (over 800c), run a turbocharger, run at high RPM's for an extended period of time, or plan on runnng leaded race fuel then you must mount the sensor at least 36 inches downstream of the exhaust port as all of these can cause the sensor to overheat"
I guess unless you tune real fast, that sensor is going to be subject to those extremes 6" from the turbo's outlet. But hey, you are the one who owns a shop right? The guy who's been to classes on EMS, but is afraid to try his skills on his own vehicle......................
Back to the original post, mine idles around 14.2-15... I would have to agree with the suggestion of a vac leak...
Last edited by evozakk; Jun 7, 2006 at 07:37 AM.
Jun 7, 2006, 09:14 AM
#21
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We've had Probably 8 cars come in over the last 2+ years that have Al's Tune on them. Of those 8 most idle about where they should. They all get a little rich for my taste upon WOT pulls on the dyno. However, if I was Al and selling a mail-order product such as that I would probably ship them out the same way. We however did see one car that the Idle AFR's were absolutly horrible and even worse at full throttle. In fact they were so bad the car wouldn't pull past 5000 RPM's as it would go so rich. We tried everything we could think of on that car to make sure it wasn't mechanical. I believe Al re-flashed that car though for him and now it seems to be running better...although not great. I don't think the problem though lies completely with Al's tune as I have seen quite a few of his cars run very well on the dyno, but that seems to be the only thing that has begun to fix the problem. I'll see him again on Monday and we are re-tuning the car for him so I will no more then. So, I have seen it before with Al BUT I can't be 100% positive it has anything to do with his tune and it's also very rare. I do agree though that it should have been taken up privately.
About the Wideband deal though...It's not going to matter where he puts it in terms of location. As long as there are no leaks it will read fine. I just wouldn't leave it on there very long as it will not live for any extended period of time at all.
About the Wideband deal though...It's not going to matter where he puts it in terms of location. As long as there are no leaks it will read fine. I just wouldn't leave it on there very long as it will not live for any extended period of time at all.
Jun 7, 2006, 11:31 AM
#22
Before anyone goes too crazy..
Have you used an OBDII Scan tool to see what your fuel trims are.. If their some positive value over 18% its likely it can't adjust anymore..
1) When you start the car, it runs lean
2) After the car is warm, does it continue to idle lean?
I have some suggestions for you once I can get a closer idea of what is going on...
The only time closed loop will idle lean is if the adjustment is so far out of range that the trims can't adjust for it .. so we'll go from there, also verify that if the car does always run lean, that its actually going into closed loop (OBD_II Scanner)
If its out of range, then there are quite a few things you need to check, first and foremost, verify your BOV is closed at idle and not venting a little, make sure there are no leaks, including around the MAF sensor, or some other location where unmetered air can pass into the engine bypassing the airfilter and MAF..
Check your MAF sensor honeycomb for damage...
Exhaust leak, vacuum leak, etc..
Have you used an OBDII Scan tool to see what your fuel trims are.. If their some positive value over 18% its likely it can't adjust anymore..
1) When you start the car, it runs lean
2) After the car is warm, does it continue to idle lean?
I have some suggestions for you once I can get a closer idea of what is going on...
The only time closed loop will idle lean is if the adjustment is so far out of range that the trims can't adjust for it .. so we'll go from there, also verify that if the car does always run lean, that its actually going into closed loop (OBD_II Scanner)
If its out of range, then there are quite a few things you need to check, first and foremost, verify your BOV is closed at idle and not venting a little, make sure there are no leaks, including around the MAF sensor, or some other location where unmetered air can pass into the engine bypassing the airfilter and MAF..
Check your MAF sensor honeycomb for damage...
Exhaust leak, vacuum leak, etc..
Jun 7, 2006, 11:39 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Before anyone goes too crazy..
Have you used an OBDII Scan tool to see what your fuel trims are.. If their some positive value over 18% its likely it can't adjust anymore..
1) When you start the car, it runs lean
2) After the car is warm, does it continue to idle lean?
I have some suggestions for you once I can get a closer idea of what is going on...
The only time closed loop will idle lean is if the adjustment is so far out of range that the trims can't adjust for it .. so we'll go from there, also verify that if the car does always run lean, that its actually going into closed loop (OBD_II Scanner)
If its out of range, then there are quite a few things you need to check, first and foremost, verify your BOV is closed at idle and not venting a little, make sure there are no leaks, including around the MAF sensor, or some other location where unmetered air can pass into the engine bypassing the airfilter and MAF..
Check your MAF sensor honeycomb for damage...
Exhaust leak, vacuum leak, etc..
Have you used an OBDII Scan tool to see what your fuel trims are.. If their some positive value over 18% its likely it can't adjust anymore..
1) When you start the car, it runs lean
2) After the car is warm, does it continue to idle lean?
I have some suggestions for you once I can get a closer idea of what is going on...
The only time closed loop will idle lean is if the adjustment is so far out of range that the trims can't adjust for it .. so we'll go from there, also verify that if the car does always run lean, that its actually going into closed loop (OBD_II Scanner)
If its out of range, then there are quite a few things you need to check, first and foremost, verify your BOV is closed at idle and not venting a little, make sure there are no leaks, including around the MAF sensor, or some other location where unmetered air can pass into the engine bypassing the airfilter and MAF..
Check your MAF sensor honeycomb for damage...
Exhaust leak, vacuum leak, etc..
A Tial BOV has no place in a MAF sesnor equiped car IMHO
In any event if the car has some unusual maf distortion or other condition that requires more feuling upon start up that is easy enough to correct
Last edited by DynoFlash; Jun 7, 2006 at 11:43 AM.
Jun 7, 2006, 11:51 AM
#24
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
With stock injectors the car should not require much a/f correction to maintain 14.6 - UNLESS there is some mechanical problem - I have listed several possible ones above and so have you
A Tial BOV has no place in a MAF sesnor equiped car IMHO
In any event if the car has some unusual maf distortion or other condition that requires more feuling upon start up that is easy enough to correct
A Tial BOV has no place in a MAF sesnor equiped car IMHO
In any event if the car has some unusual maf distortion or other condition that requires more feuling upon start up that is easy enough to correct
I eluded to the same stuff you said.. I'm thinking there may be a vacuum leak somewhere that would throw the car into a lean mode (Where the trims are so out of range they can't adjust any longer) Or maybe the MAF sensor is cocked on the intake pipe allowing it to draw unmetered air in..
But its definitely not the tune, it just can't be with stock injectors (as you said) since you would have something pretty leaky going on to get it to idle like that (Besides being untuned with cams)
Jun 7, 2006, 05:39 PM
#25
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Please, hold the ketchup !
We are talking about his idle
he could have an exhuast leak or improper o2 sesnor placement etc
All he would have to do is adjust the fueling in idle assuming his reading is accurate
BTW - did you read his mods ????
Tial BOV - big idle problems with a race VTA bov
We are talking about his idle
he could have an exhuast leak or improper o2 sesnor placement etc
All he would have to do is adjust the fueling in idle assuming his reading is accurate
BTW - did you read his mods ????
Tial BOV - big idle problems with a race VTA bov
Al can be more specific about the BOV ?? how does the BOV VTA have to do with lean idleling?
Jun 7, 2006, 05:44 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by vboy425
Al can be more specific about the BOV ?? how does the BOV VTA have to do with lean idleling?
Jun 7, 2006, 07:44 PM
#28
Yep, there are two conditions that can happen when the BOV is partially open under vacuum.. On my car, the valve would be slightly open (and actually most cars with the stock DV are the same way) and you could feel air escaping from it since engine vacuum would draw the valve open slightly, and there was a small amount of positive pressure in my pipe.. in my case it resulted in a rich condition, In other circumstances there may be no positive pressure in the pipe, and therefore the engine idle would draw in air through that leak, hence unmetered air, typically that would happen if the exhaust volume was low enough to not be spinning the turbo slightly at idle, which would result in a negative pressure in the upper pipe.. Since he's running cams, the conditions could be met for the BOV being the culprit.. But he really needs to go through everything to find a possible leak..
Both occurrances are normal, and the reason why there MUST be recirculation, using a BOV with enough spring pressure to stay sealed at idle and low RPM, would result in fluttering, possible compressor surge, RPM rise at part throttle shifts, and other undesirable results when driving the car.. Hence the reason why even if your VTA "Works" fine, its in reality not working right at all..
Finally, If the cams are installed "Straight up" 0/0 with aftermarket, or used stock cam gears, idle vacuum will be lower, combined with the idle restrictions and airflow (without idle tweaks such as increased timing, fueling, and raising idle speed) would result in very low MAF readings for his idle RPM, and that WOULD result in a very lean idle (out of scale for the trims to fix)
What RPM is your car Idling at? Do you have the ability to view any sensor data such as Karmann (MAF) Hz? If the value is lower than 30hz, it could result in an out of range lean condition, you should also be idling at 950rpm or a little higher with cams (My car idles at about 975-1100rpm with 280s)
Both occurrances are normal, and the reason why there MUST be recirculation, using a BOV with enough spring pressure to stay sealed at idle and low RPM, would result in fluttering, possible compressor surge, RPM rise at part throttle shifts, and other undesirable results when driving the car.. Hence the reason why even if your VTA "Works" fine, its in reality not working right at all..
Finally, If the cams are installed "Straight up" 0/0 with aftermarket, or used stock cam gears, idle vacuum will be lower, combined with the idle restrictions and airflow (without idle tweaks such as increased timing, fueling, and raising idle speed) would result in very low MAF readings for his idle RPM, and that WOULD result in a very lean idle (out of scale for the trims to fix)
What RPM is your car Idling at? Do you have the ability to view any sensor data such as Karmann (MAF) Hz? If the value is lower than 30hz, it could result in an out of range lean condition, you should also be idling at 950rpm or a little higher with cams (My car idles at about 975-1100rpm with 280s)
Jun 13, 2006, 10:12 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Before anyone goes too crazy..
Have you used an OBDII Scan tool to see what your fuel trims are.. If their some positive value over 18% its likely it can't adjust anymore..
1) When you start the car, it runs lean
2) After the car is warm, does it continue to idle lean?
I have some suggestions for you once I can get a closer idea of what is going on...
The only time closed loop will idle lean is if the adjustment is so far out of range that the trims can't adjust for it .. so we'll go from there, also verify that if the car does always run lean, that its actually going into closed loop (OBD_II Scanner)
If its out of range, then there are quite a few things you need to check, first and foremost, verify your BOV is closed at idle and not venting a little, make sure there are no leaks, including around the MAF sensor, or some other location where unmetered air can pass into the engine bypassing the airfilter and MAF..
Check your MAF sensor honeycomb for damage...
Exhaust leak, vacuum leak, etc..
Have you used an OBDII Scan tool to see what your fuel trims are.. If their some positive value over 18% its likely it can't adjust anymore..
1) When you start the car, it runs lean
2) After the car is warm, does it continue to idle lean?
I have some suggestions for you once I can get a closer idea of what is going on...
The only time closed loop will idle lean is if the adjustment is so far out of range that the trims can't adjust for it .. so we'll go from there, also verify that if the car does always run lean, that its actually going into closed loop (OBD_II Scanner)
If its out of range, then there are quite a few things you need to check, first and foremost, verify your BOV is closed at idle and not venting a little, make sure there are no leaks, including around the MAF sensor, or some other location where unmetered air can pass into the engine bypassing the airfilter and MAF..
Check your MAF sensor honeycomb for damage...
Exhaust leak, vacuum leak, etc..
Jun 13, 2006, 10:17 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Yep, there are two conditions that can happen when the BOV is partially open under vacuum.. On my car, the valve would be slightly open (and actually most cars with the stock DV are the same way) and you could feel air escaping from it since engine vacuum would draw the valve open slightly, and there was a small amount of positive pressure in my pipe.. in my case it resulted in a rich condition, In other circumstances there may be no positive pressure in the pipe, and therefore the engine idle would draw in air through that leak, hence unmetered air, typically that would happen if the exhaust volume was low enough to not be spinning the turbo slightly at idle, which would result in a negative pressure in the upper pipe.. Since he's running cams, the conditions could be met for the BOV being the culprit.. But he really needs to go through everything to find a possible leak..
Both occurrances are normal, and the reason why there MUST be recirculation, using a BOV with enough spring pressure to stay sealed at idle and low RPM, would result in fluttering, possible compressor surge, RPM rise at part throttle shifts, and other undesirable results when driving the car.. Hence the reason why even if your VTA "Works" fine, its in reality not working right at all..
Finally, If the cams are installed "Straight up" 0/0 with aftermarket, or used stock cam gears, idle vacuum will be lower, combined with the idle restrictions and airflow (without idle tweaks such as increased timing, fueling, and raising idle speed) would result in very low MAF readings for his idle RPM, and that WOULD result in a very lean idle (out of scale for the trims to fix)
What RPM is your car Idling at? Do you have the ability to view any sensor data such as Karmann (MAF) Hz? If the value is lower than 30hz, it could result in an out of range lean condition, you should also be idling at 950rpm or a little higher with cams (My car idles at about 975-1100rpm with 280s)
Both occurrances are normal, and the reason why there MUST be recirculation, using a BOV with enough spring pressure to stay sealed at idle and low RPM, would result in fluttering, possible compressor surge, RPM rise at part throttle shifts, and other undesirable results when driving the car.. Hence the reason why even if your VTA "Works" fine, its in reality not working right at all..
Finally, If the cams are installed "Straight up" 0/0 with aftermarket, or used stock cam gears, idle vacuum will be lower, combined with the idle restrictions and airflow (without idle tweaks such as increased timing, fueling, and raising idle speed) would result in very low MAF readings for his idle RPM, and that WOULD result in a very lean idle (out of scale for the trims to fix)
What RPM is your car Idling at? Do you have the ability to view any sensor data such as Karmann (MAF) Hz? If the value is lower than 30hz, it could result in an out of range lean condition, you should also be idling at 950rpm or a little higher with cams (My car idles at about 975-1100rpm with 280s)
HKS 272's with hks gears. Set at zero. The maf is reading 58-60 hz at idle when cold. The car idles around 1000 rpm's.
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