Magnus on a stock turbo on 92
very nice results 
JB, is this with a stock throttle body? or an upgraded throttle body too?
Another reason for the increased timing could be from more even cylinder filling. If one cylinder is receiving more air than the others and is given the same amount of fuel, this will knock earlier than the other cylinders.
JB, is this with a stock throttle body? or an upgraded throttle body too?
Another reason for the increased timing could be from more even cylinder filling. If one cylinder is receiving more air than the others and is given the same amount of fuel, this will knock earlier than the other cylinders.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
For clarification, you say the Magnus takes more timing in the mid-range, but the car makes the same power with more timing advance? If timing were not increased, the motor loses power through that RPM range then?
Lots of stuff going on but if VE were improving and it could take more timing, I would expect good gains in power through that RPM range. That doesn't seem to be the case though which leads me to believe something else is going on. How does it affect the AFR from 4500-6000 RPM?
Before anybody gets worked up, I’m not trying to say the manifold is bad or anything. The gains are there and it’s clear it works above 6000 RPM. I’m just interested in figuring out the difference it makes through the lower RPM range. I always hear how the magnus intake “takes” more timing, but it seems more like it “needs” more timing to make the same power and I’m just interested in WHY that is the case.
Lots of stuff going on but if VE were improving and it could take more timing, I would expect good gains in power through that RPM range. That doesn't seem to be the case though which leads me to believe something else is going on. How does it affect the AFR from 4500-6000 RPM?
Before anybody gets worked up, I’m not trying to say the manifold is bad or anything. The gains are there and it’s clear it works above 6000 RPM. I’m just interested in figuring out the difference it makes through the lower RPM range. I always hear how the magnus intake “takes” more timing, but it seems more like it “needs” more timing to make the same power and I’m just interested in WHY that is the case.
For a given setup (comparing this car RUN6 and the other car RUN9) the car makes more power everywhere no doubt as a result of being able to take more timing without knock. Boost is constant, cams are a constant, and the stock catback keeps things even. The only changes between the 2 cars was SD to MAF and the Magnus.
The gains at 4500 are not as pronounced as the gains at 6000 but in that range there are definite gains between the 2 cars. I will pull the 2 runs up in Winpep and get exact increases at 4500, 5, 55, and 6k.
I know what you were meaning and I dont take it as knocking the manifold.
very nice results
JB, is this with a stock throttle body? or an upgraded throttle body too?
Another reason for the increased timing could be from more even cylinder filling. If one cylinder is receiving more air than the others and is given the same amount of fuel, this will knock earlier than the other cylinders.
JB, is this with a stock throttle body? or an upgraded throttle body too?
Another reason for the increased timing could be from more even cylinder filling. If one cylinder is receiving more air than the others and is given the same amount of fuel, this will knock earlier than the other cylinders.
3.5" IC piping is huge. Any pics of the engine bay? i didn't know that AMS even offered 3.5" IC piping. Of course, I never really enter the AMS site. So, I am not up to date.
Last edited by sparky; Jan 31, 2011 at 07:08 PM.
Aaron, I'm talking on the first plot where it went from 440 to 474 peak HP with only the change in intake manifold. I don't think comparing two different cars or setups is even worth mentioning on the later charts for what I’m asking about.
I'm just interested in how you are saying the car takes more timing yet power is even from 4500-5200 then starts to pick up. It's relatively insignificant from a power perspective; I'm just interested in what is actually taking place. If timing and IPW are held constant, what happens through the 4500-6000 RPM range? Does the car lean out, richen up, make power, lose power, etc.?
I'm just trying to get a feel for what may be happening with engine VE, exhaust reversion, combustion efficiency, charge mixing, etc.
Overall, it could be. Or it is possible it just NEEDS more timing due to changes in charge tumble and fuel atomization. But specifically, it sounds like through the lower RPM range, it needs more timing to make the same HP. To me, that is a sign of some combustion inefficiency.
I'm just interested in how you are saying the car takes more timing yet power is even from 4500-5200 then starts to pick up. It's relatively insignificant from a power perspective; I'm just interested in what is actually taking place. If timing and IPW are held constant, what happens through the 4500-6000 RPM range? Does the car lean out, richen up, make power, lose power, etc.?
I'm just trying to get a feel for what may be happening with engine VE, exhaust reversion, combustion efficiency, charge mixing, etc.
very nice results
JB, is this with a stock throttle body? or an upgraded throttle body too?
Another reason for the increased timing could be from more even cylinder filling. If one cylinder is receiving more air than the others and is given the same amount of fuel, this will knock earlier than the other cylinders.
JB, is this with a stock throttle body? or an upgraded throttle body too?
Another reason for the increased timing could be from more even cylinder filling. If one cylinder is receiving more air than the others and is given the same amount of fuel, this will knock earlier than the other cylinders.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Feb 1, 2011 at 04:09 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
Oh the very first one? There were no timing changes, only fueling. That was back to back on E85.
It only takes more timing than normally expected on pumpgas stock turbo plot. When it was on E85 we had to part throttle into the pull because it was equipped with a 3" non surge port cover and it would get violent surge if we didnt modulate the throttle on the roll in it would huff and the car would start to think it was knock.
This is the car I mentioned in the SD thread that the MAF didnt adjust for the VE change and I had to richen up to maintain AFRs. The only other change besides the Magnus was altering the UICP to fit.
recap-
First plot, Timing was constant fueling was not.
It only takes more timing than normally expected on pumpgas stock turbo plot. When it was on E85 we had to part throttle into the pull because it was equipped with a 3" non surge port cover and it would get violent surge if we didnt modulate the throttle on the roll in it would huff and the car would start to think it was knock.
This is the car I mentioned in the SD thread that the MAF didnt adjust for the VE change and I had to richen up to maintain AFRs. The only other change besides the Magnus was altering the UICP to fit.
recap-
First plot, Timing was constant fueling was not.
Aaron, I'm talking on the first plot where it went from 440 to 474 peak HP with only the change in intake manifold. I don't think comparing two different cars or setups is even worth mentioning on the later charts for what I’m asking about.
I'm just interested in how you are saying the car takes more timing yet power is even from 4500-5200 then starts to pick up. It's relatively insignificant from a power perspective; I'm just interested in what is actually taking place. If timing and IPW are held constant, what happens through the 4500-6000 RPM range? Does the car lean out, richen up, make power, lose power, etc.?
I'm just trying to get a feel for what may be happening with engine VE, exhaust reversion, combustion efficiency, charge mixing, etc.
Overall, it could be. Or it is possible it just NEEDS more timing due to changes in charge tumble and fuel atomization. But specifically, it sounds like through the lower RPM range, it needs more timing to make the same HP. To me, that is a sign of some combustion inefficiency.
I'm just interested in how you are saying the car takes more timing yet power is even from 4500-5200 then starts to pick up. It's relatively insignificant from a power perspective; I'm just interested in what is actually taking place. If timing and IPW are held constant, what happens through the 4500-6000 RPM range? Does the car lean out, richen up, make power, lose power, etc.?
I'm just trying to get a feel for what may be happening with engine VE, exhaust reversion, combustion efficiency, charge mixing, etc.
Overall, it could be. Or it is possible it just NEEDS more timing due to changes in charge tumble and fuel atomization. But specifically, it sounds like through the lower RPM range, it needs more timing to make the same HP. To me, that is a sign of some combustion inefficiency.
Ok, we were thinking along different paths to start with that explains things.
So on the first graph, were you able to increase the timing through the midrange to pick up power there as well? I've just never seen a graph with a step like that where it was engine VE doing it. Other then something like a cam change over on VTEC or something like that that changes VE in a very pronounced manner over a short RPM range.
So on the first graph, were you able to increase the timing through the midrange to pick up power there as well? I've just never seen a graph with a step like that where it was engine VE doing it. Other then something like a cam change over on VTEC or something like that that changes VE in a very pronounced manner over a short RPM range.
He explained it pretty well turbo is surging and he has to peddle it in the run.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
Top graph (440-474) there were NO timing changes on E85. Mid RPM timing was PUMPgas only. That was all the intake manifold, I just changed fuel to keep it 12.0 it had leaned out to 13.4 on the street prior to the dyno.
The VTEC effect is peddling to avoid surge as Spike noted
aaron
The VTEC effect is peddling to avoid surge as Spike noted
aaron
Hrm, odd though as if the magnus did flow more through that RPM range then really it should have pulled the turbo out of surge, or at least reduced it.
Either way though, makes the sub 6000 RPM area worthless on that comparison, which is unfortunate as that is where the biggest question is with that manifold. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Either way though, makes the sub 6000 RPM area worthless on that comparison, which is unfortunate as that is where the biggest question is with that manifold. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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