450+whp Evos on pump (93) chime in!
read the thread and I love what im learning so far
My main question is what kind of turbo would you reccomend on pump gas to achieve 500 or at least near there? im seeing people with fp red, and fp blacks. I want to stay away from e-85 I heard rumors of it disappearing later in the future.
My main question is what kind of turbo would you reccomend on pump gas to achieve 500 or at least near there? im seeing people with fp red, and fp blacks. I want to stay away from e-85 I heard rumors of it disappearing later in the future.
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
iTrader: (16)
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
From: Rochester, NH
read the thread and I love what im learning so far
My main question is what kind of turbo would you reccomend on pump gas to achieve 500 or at least near there? im seeing people with fp red, and fp blacks. I want to stay away from e-85 I heard rumors of it disappearing later in the future.
My main question is what kind of turbo would you reccomend on pump gas to achieve 500 or at least near there? im seeing people with fp red, and fp blacks. I want to stay away from e-85 I heard rumors of it disappearing later in the future.
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 500
Likes: 4
From: Australia
I'm interested to know what you think boost specifically affects negatively. Power is power, torque is torque, whether you make it mechanically (displacement, cams, exhaust, intake etc), with a larger turbo on lower boost, or a smaller turbo with higher boost, what's different specifically in terms of engine stress? Obviously running higher boost is harder on the turbo, you're more likely to have a boost leak and the you push the knock resistance of the fuel a lot more. But, all other things equal (power, torque, zero knock, solid engine build, same redline etc) what is fundamentally worse/harder on the engine itself making the power with higher boost? All I can think of is with a smaller turbo you inherently make more torque earlier in the rev range but I thought if you meant that you'd have said it.
Built motors never wear out, they break first.
450 on Chad's dyno is 505-510 on a Dynojet so you'll have the typical lifespan that those see.
Your question shouldnt be how reliable is a 450-500whp car, it should be how low of boost does it take to make 450whp with the 33RB on CBRD's Mustang? The reason I say this is cars are proportionately reliable to how hard they are pushed. For instance, if it can make 450 on a Mustang at 23psi it should last for quite awhile but if it takes 28-29 then its going to have an issue far sooner rather than later.
Aaron
450 on Chad's dyno is 505-510 on a Dynojet so you'll have the typical lifespan that those see.
Your question shouldnt be how reliable is a 450-500whp car, it should be how low of boost does it take to make 450whp with the 33RB on CBRD's Mustang? The reason I say this is cars are proportionately reliable to how hard they are pushed. For instance, if it can make 450 on a Mustang at 23psi it should last for quite awhile but if it takes 28-29 then its going to have an issue far sooner rather than later.
Aaron
Last edited by EvocentriK; Sep 21, 2012 at 07:59 AM.
There's quite a few turbos with the right set up that will get you to 500whp on pump gas. Pretty much FP Black, GT35R, all variants and anything bigger. It all depends on your set up and goal for the car for which turbo to choose. Any idea on what kind of set up you want? Like Aaron and others have said in this thread, longevity is key. Keep engine temperature in check and the less boost to make 500whp the better. It all equals less stress on the motor compared to high engine temps and 30+psi on a daily driver...
Either an fp black or a 35r turbo which is my favorite turbo, I just want a 500hp daily driver kinda like those super cars you see on the road once in awhile. I do have cams, full exhaust, injen intake setup, and an o2 housing setup. Which turbo has a better spool time the fp black or 35r?
FWIW a GT35R will make higher PEAK power based solely on it's higher efficiency and obviously less back pressure but man you pay for it in any throttle response and mid range.
Once you get into race gas and E85 the line blurs to almost nothing in terms of power.
Go Black, easy Bolton, faster spool then a GT35R HTA even, and retains twin scroll which really helps a lot.
Go Red even that is what i did I made 460WHP on S1 cams and basically stage one stuff. Red spools faster than a black but maxes about 60WHP LESS then a Black.
I'm interested to know what you think boost specifically affects negatively. Power is power, torque is torque, whether you make it mechanically (displacement, cams, exhaust, intake etc), with a larger turbo on lower boost, or a smaller turbo with higher boost, what's different specifically in terms of engine stress? Obviously running higher boost is harder on the turbo, you're more likely to have a boost leak and the you push the knock resistance of the fuel a lot more. But, all other things equal (power, torque, zero knock, solid engine build, same redline etc) what is fundamentally worse/harder on the engine itself making the power with higher boost? All I can think of is with a smaller turbo you inherently make more torque earlier in the rev range but I thought if you meant that you'd have said it.
More torque early is harder on things. For a given torque value (lessay 500 ft lbs) the difference between making it at 4000 rpm and 6000rpm is 200psi IMEP or so. I have done the math but dont have it in front of me right now but I know its somewhere around there.
The whole reason I posted our theory of "400 ft lbs" breaks rods 3 or 4 years ago was mostly based on torque at low rpm, not 400 ft lbs at 5500 or something like you'd see on a bigger turbo. Thats why these stock block cars can make 700whp because the torque is at 6100-6500 and keeps the mechanical load (cylinder pressure) low enough that the IMEP might be close to what it is at 400 ft lbs at 3400.
I will do some math and see what I come up with specifically.
Aaron
Last edited by JohnBradley; Sep 21, 2012 at 08:55 AM.
Why I said we need to know what power the 33RB makes at what boost levels independent of displacement.
My 2.4/3586 made 588whp at 23psi on 92 octane for instance. A 2.0L takes 29psi to make the same power, this is what I call adjusted displacement. Since you are building a 2.3 the same principal applies, in this case boost can be 16% less for the same power as a 2.0L instead of 20% like the 2.4L.
I think Chad made 497whp with that turbo on a 2.3 in his racecar on 93 but I dont recall the boost level.
Aaron
My 2.4/3586 made 588whp at 23psi on 92 octane for instance. A 2.0L takes 29psi to make the same power, this is what I call adjusted displacement. Since you are building a 2.3 the same principal applies, in this case boost can be 16% less for the same power as a 2.0L instead of 20% like the 2.4L.
I think Chad made 497whp with that turbo on a 2.3 in his racecar on 93 but I dont recall the boost level.
Aaron
the 33R on our car made 532whp on 93 at around 27psi- the 35RB made 587whp at about the same psi-
We have made 425whp at 22psi on a stock block motor with the 33RB- also- stock cams-
just for reference.
CB
Aaron-
The aero has changed over the years on the 33R's (the RB stands for race billet- our original 33R's were non billet, and we were using JMF manifolds mainly- now we use our own manifolds and billet wheels)
We did a 2.3L with E85- our manifold, 35RB- and If I recall at 34.5 psi it made 630whp/540wtq on our dyno--- on pump at 28 psi it made 540whp/470wtq-
just for reference-
I also like the HTA 3586-
cb
The aero has changed over the years on the 33R's (the RB stands for race billet- our original 33R's were non billet, and we were using JMF manifolds mainly- now we use our own manifolds and billet wheels)
We did a 2.3L with E85- our manifold, 35RB- and If I recall at 34.5 psi it made 630whp/540wtq on our dyno--- on pump at 28 psi it made 540whp/470wtq-
just for reference-
I also like the HTA 3586-
cb
Last edited by CBRD; Sep 21, 2012 at 09:07 AM.
EvoCentrik,
This car-
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...mph-traps.html
Would be around 648psi IMEP for the peak torque it produces at 6350rpm. That is 485 ft lbs on a Mustang, 548 on a DJ.
400-420 ft lbs on a stock turbo at 3500-4500 is 583-587 IMEP, 460 ft lbs is 648psi IMEP for reference.
The main difference is its not as much load on the engine when it happens at 6350 and is done revving by 8500 since its on the pipe and pulling hard to redline. It might be the same load on the rods but its not harming the motor anymore than the making huge torque down low on a stock turbo. Anytime you can reduce boost to make the same torque, even though the cylinder pressure has to be similar, the propensity to knock is reduced.
This car-
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...mph-traps.html
Would be around 648psi IMEP for the peak torque it produces at 6350rpm. That is 485 ft lbs on a Mustang, 548 on a DJ.
400-420 ft lbs on a stock turbo at 3500-4500 is 583-587 IMEP, 460 ft lbs is 648psi IMEP for reference.
The main difference is its not as much load on the engine when it happens at 6350 and is done revving by 8500 since its on the pipe and pulling hard to redline. It might be the same load on the rods but its not harming the motor anymore than the making huge torque down low on a stock turbo. Anytime you can reduce boost to make the same torque, even though the cylinder pressure has to be similar, the propensity to knock is reduced.
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 500
Likes: 4
From: Australia
Thanks Aaron, can you please pm me your equations I'm getting wildly different numbers to you. If I compare my data in pressure using pascals as units to your pressure in psi it's close but after conversion its very different. I'm calculating Pmep though... would like to see what youre doing for iMEP.
EvoCentrik,
This car-
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...mph-traps.html
Would be around 648psi IMEP for the peak torque it produces at 6350rpm. That is 485 ft lbs on a Mustang, 548 on a DJ.
400-420 ft lbs on a stock turbo at 3500-4500 is 583-587 IMEP, 460 ft lbs is 648psi IMEP for reference.
The main difference is its not as much load on the engine when it happens at 6350 and is done revving by 8500 since its on the pipe and pulling hard to redline. It might be the same load on the rods but its not harming the motor anymore than the making huge torque down low on a stock turbo. Anytime you can reduce boost to make the same torque, even though the cylinder pressure has to be similar, the propensity to knock is reduced.
This car-
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...mph-traps.html
Would be around 648psi IMEP for the peak torque it produces at 6350rpm. That is 485 ft lbs on a Mustang, 548 on a DJ.
400-420 ft lbs on a stock turbo at 3500-4500 is 583-587 IMEP, 460 ft lbs is 648psi IMEP for reference.
The main difference is its not as much load on the engine when it happens at 6350 and is done revving by 8500 since its on the pipe and pulling hard to redline. It might be the same load on the rods but its not harming the motor anymore than the making huge torque down low on a stock turbo. Anytime you can reduce boost to make the same torque, even though the cylinder pressure has to be similar, the propensity to knock is reduced.
A Black by a Mile. At least 500RPM's. You are comparing a Stock Frame Twin Scroll BB turbo to a Large Frame Single Scroll Turbo with probably a tubular manifold.
FWIW a GT35R will make higher PEAK power based solely on it's higher efficiency and obviously less back pressure but man you pay for it in any throttle response and mid range.
Once you get into race gas and E85 the line blurs to almost nothing in terms of power.
Go Black, easy Bolton, faster spool then a GT35R HTA even, and retains twin scroll which really helps a lot.
Go Red even that is what i did I made 460WHP on S1 cams and basically stage one stuff. Red spools faster than a black but maxes about 60WHP LESS then a Black.
FWIW a GT35R will make higher PEAK power based solely on it's higher efficiency and obviously less back pressure but man you pay for it in any throttle response and mid range.
Once you get into race gas and E85 the line blurs to almost nothing in terms of power.
Go Black, easy Bolton, faster spool then a GT35R HTA even, and retains twin scroll which really helps a lot.
Go Red even that is what i did I made 460WHP on S1 cams and basically stage one stuff. Red spools faster than a black but maxes about 60WHP LESS then a Black.