Graphic's Evo IX on FiTronic Flex Fuel Program for the Stock ECU
Apr 13, 2015, 01:20 PM
#32
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On the same token how can you expect someone who has had a tuner tune their car and then you get full run of it. What your afraid of could be said about you guys in reverse.
I always felt like it was an unspoken rule that if you get a tune from a tuner you dont share their work with another tuner because thats their work. You dont want someone to benefit from it.
Sounds like a great product but hopefully they will offer it as a product that anyone can buy. They will have more sales for sure.
I always felt like it was an unspoken rule that if you get a tune from a tuner you dont share their work with another tuner because thats their work. You dont want someone to benefit from it.
Sounds like a great product but hopefully they will offer it as a product that anyone can buy. They will have more sales for sure.
Apr 13, 2015, 02:21 PM
#33
Evolving Member
^ That was always my assumption. Give people options, you can't fit everyone into one big box and say "take it or leave it."
While I can sincerely appreciate that lots of R&D time and money has been invested to get to this point, the last piece of the puzzle seems to be packaging a product that fits your market.
There are generally 4 types of owners:
Like others have stated. No shop is going to build a motor and suggest the customer get remote tuned elsewhere unless they don't have a dyno...and what shop worth their weight these days doesn't have a dyno in house. More than likely the customer would have to push for this option for it to even be discussed.
The people who fall into that last category will throw their money for a remote tune as a set it and forget it option. The irony is these people are more likely to just get 'er done and move on. Generally speaking these people tend to collect all their parts based on everything they've seen from dyno sheets on the internet. They know diddly squat about tuning and don't want to mess with that stuff. As such they want to get the car tuned and you probably won't hear for them for a long unless there is a problem. This kind of customer is unlikely to ever mess with the tune because it's beyond his capabilities. Likewise, if the system works as well as claimed - even less chance of return business.
MOST evo owners don't work on wall street; are constantly making small adjustments, be they mechanical or tune related. Half the fun of the car is making their adjustments and seeing the car progress. These kind of people tend to read, research and discuss things for a quite a while before making logical decisions on how to accomplish their goals. You probably interact with few of these people (customer wise) because, truth be told, they have little need for someone else to tune their car. The last thing a person like that wants is having to RELY on someone else when they've been flashing their car since day one. It is that fundamental aspect which I think holds most people back from buying this atm.
I feel you are limiting yourself by trying to control the tuning aspect of this product. People are well aware of the risks of tuning their own vehicle. Those who do so have likely been doing it for quite a while and are have well defined xmls and a reasonably good understanding of most of these tables. Sure we aren't all experts and professionals with a precise understanding of ALL tables. I'd be willing to bet many people don't fundamentally understand 50% of the tables in their rom but understand enough about the fuel, timing and boost tables to make a safe and solid open loop tune. It should be of no surprise then why most of the tech/help threads posted have nothing to do with these tables and more to do with the fine balancing that someone with a more thorough understanding of advanced/global fuel, iscv, map, sd tables and so forth.
Want yo make your money back faster? Give customers the option to fully control their tune.
Concerned about damage liability? Make them sign a user agreement.
I want flex fuel badly...the price doesn't even bother me all that much and I can deal with all the new hardware, some of which looks redundant. The only reason I haven't purchased one of these is because I simply will not relinquish the ability to tune my own vehicle.
While I can sincerely appreciate that lots of R&D time and money has been invested to get to this point, the last piece of the puzzle seems to be packaging a product that fits your market.
There are generally 4 types of owners:
- Shop does mechanical + tuning
- Shop does mechanical / Owner self tuned
- Owner does mechanical + tuning
- Remote tuner does tuning and sometimes mechanical
Like others have stated. No shop is going to build a motor and suggest the customer get remote tuned elsewhere unless they don't have a dyno...and what shop worth their weight these days doesn't have a dyno in house. More than likely the customer would have to push for this option for it to even be discussed.
The people who fall into that last category will throw their money for a remote tune as a set it and forget it option. The irony is these people are more likely to just get 'er done and move on. Generally speaking these people tend to collect all their parts based on everything they've seen from dyno sheets on the internet. They know diddly squat about tuning and don't want to mess with that stuff. As such they want to get the car tuned and you probably won't hear for them for a long unless there is a problem. This kind of customer is unlikely to ever mess with the tune because it's beyond his capabilities. Likewise, if the system works as well as claimed - even less chance of return business.
MOST evo owners don't work on wall street; are constantly making small adjustments, be they mechanical or tune related. Half the fun of the car is making their adjustments and seeing the car progress. These kind of people tend to read, research and discuss things for a quite a while before making logical decisions on how to accomplish their goals. You probably interact with few of these people (customer wise) because, truth be told, they have little need for someone else to tune their car. The last thing a person like that wants is having to RELY on someone else when they've been flashing their car since day one. It is that fundamental aspect which I think holds most people back from buying this atm.
I feel you are limiting yourself by trying to control the tuning aspect of this product. People are well aware of the risks of tuning their own vehicle. Those who do so have likely been doing it for quite a while and are have well defined xmls and a reasonably good understanding of most of these tables. Sure we aren't all experts and professionals with a precise understanding of ALL tables. I'd be willing to bet many people don't fundamentally understand 50% of the tables in their rom but understand enough about the fuel, timing and boost tables to make a safe and solid open loop tune. It should be of no surprise then why most of the tech/help threads posted have nothing to do with these tables and more to do with the fine balancing that someone with a more thorough understanding of advanced/global fuel, iscv, map, sd tables and so forth.
Want yo make your money back faster? Give customers the option to fully control their tune.
Concerned about damage liability? Make them sign a user agreement.
I want flex fuel badly...the price doesn't even bother me all that much and I can deal with all the new hardware, some of which looks redundant. The only reason I haven't purchased one of these is because I simply will not relinquish the ability to tune my own vehicle.
Last edited by R. Mutt; Apr 13, 2015 at 02:27 PM.
Apr 13, 2015, 11:10 PM
#34
The Evo ECU is very limited to what we can and cant do as far as protecting our work. Once the XML is released to the public, it will allow anyone to share it and we will lose all our ability to control the product.
The main reason its being sold the way it is right now, is specifically due to the fact its an open project the second the actual XML is set free to the public.
The main reason its being sold the way it is right now, is specifically due to the fact its an open project the second the actual XML is set free to the public.
The initial value in the product is the ability to put the package together and sell it for a reasonable price. The ongoing value in the product is to continually update and grow what it can do. As the folks who worked on the hardware/software that's how you get your money back and keep getting more money. You still have control over the product's direction even though you may not the tune's themselves.
As a tuner you value is your ability to quickly produce a good high quality tune in a shorter time with less resources than your competitors. That's what keeps the long term guys in business.
Last edited by codgi; Apr 13, 2015 at 11:25 PM.
Apr 14, 2015, 08:56 AM
#36
This cant be compared to anything else because it was never done before. This is the stock ecu and just an add on code. The hardware just adds a lot of fail safe to the point it is safer then most standalones or as safe, but with the added benefit of OEM built in fail safes.
I'm sorry some of you guys don't like how its jailed per say to a few people to tune it on the car, but that's how its going to stay for now.
Once its done, it really wont ever need touched again. Its not something that you keep tweaking. The only time it ever needs redone is if you change your modifications on the car.
Also its not fully not accessible. The rom is still viewable, and you can change stuff the car does still and the car will respond. The only part that is not included is the actual ethanol tables. Aside from that its still a regular rom. Its not pass protected, or anything of the sort.
I have sold a few kits already, they are going to move, so we are not worried about that.
This kits designed more for a daily driver per say, that wants to make sure he can mix fuels if he needs to and still be able to boost his car safely.
Theres no easy way to just share an xml, and say hey don't share that or profit off that please. Not going to happen. That's why its not going to be available to public at this time.
It is still utilizing something open source. Its not to be compared to a password protected standalone.
If there was a way to key the product to each car / programmer per say, then we would release it no problem. The problem here is, the product will be spread, people wont use the hardware we put a lot of time into, and people are going to take advantage of it. Maybe even make their own hardware and attempt to resell and profit off our hard work.
There's just not enough security with the stock ecu easily to just publicly sell something like this. Its pretty easy to understand this.
I also understand, some people hate having someone else's tune on their car, other then their own. Believe me I'm one of them. When I had a tune on my GT-R when i first purchased it, i didn't even want to drive it. I felt disconnected to the car, and just did not feel right. After I went through a ton of steps to become a EcuTek Master tuner for the platform I feel completely different about the car now. I feel way more connected, and way happier & safer with the car in general.
Right now this particular product isn't for you guys who like to self tune, and don't think you're nuts just because you feel the same way I explained above. Its called a hobby & passion, and tuning your own car is part of your hobby. I fully understand that.
I'm sorry some of you guys don't like how its jailed per say to a few people to tune it on the car, but that's how its going to stay for now.
Once its done, it really wont ever need touched again. Its not something that you keep tweaking. The only time it ever needs redone is if you change your modifications on the car.
Also its not fully not accessible. The rom is still viewable, and you can change stuff the car does still and the car will respond. The only part that is not included is the actual ethanol tables. Aside from that its still a regular rom. Its not pass protected, or anything of the sort.
I have sold a few kits already, they are going to move, so we are not worried about that.
This kits designed more for a daily driver per say, that wants to make sure he can mix fuels if he needs to and still be able to boost his car safely.
Theres no easy way to just share an xml, and say hey don't share that or profit off that please. Not going to happen. That's why its not going to be available to public at this time.
It is still utilizing something open source. Its not to be compared to a password protected standalone.
If there was a way to key the product to each car / programmer per say, then we would release it no problem. The problem here is, the product will be spread, people wont use the hardware we put a lot of time into, and people are going to take advantage of it. Maybe even make their own hardware and attempt to resell and profit off our hard work.
There's just not enough security with the stock ecu easily to just publicly sell something like this. Its pretty easy to understand this.
I also understand, some people hate having someone else's tune on their car, other then their own. Believe me I'm one of them. When I had a tune on my GT-R when i first purchased it, i didn't even want to drive it. I felt disconnected to the car, and just did not feel right. After I went through a ton of steps to become a EcuTek Master tuner for the platform I feel completely different about the car now. I feel way more connected, and way happier & safer with the car in general.
Right now this particular product isn't for you guys who like to self tune, and don't think you're nuts just because you feel the same way I explained above. Its called a hobby & passion, and tuning your own car is part of your hobby. I fully understand that.
Apr 14, 2015, 08:57 AM
#37
I think you are thinking about too hard: it's a product, it's an option to consider if flex fuel capability is a parameter of importance and interest.
If you find it lesser value proposition then AEM stand alone and numerous other options, purchase the one that gives you best value.
Why the suggestion to reverse engineer or any other put downs: this product is not imposed on you, it's a solution available on free market, treat it as such to help you make best decision, rather then treating it as if it belongs to the "Evo Community" and therefore was and should all be free, and was somehow taken from you/community.
Makes sense?
I would have used "better value" and better technical solution if I knew of one: if you have suggestions and experience with superior offer, PM me to not clog FiTronic thread with separate discussion.
Thank yku
If you find it lesser value proposition then AEM stand alone and numerous other options, purchase the one that gives you best value.
Why the suggestion to reverse engineer or any other put downs: this product is not imposed on you, it's a solution available on free market, treat it as such to help you make best decision, rather then treating it as if it belongs to the "Evo Community" and therefore was and should all be free, and was somehow taken from you/community.
Makes sense?
I would have used "better value" and better technical solution if I knew of one: if you have suggestions and experience with superior offer, PM me to not clog FiTronic thread with separate discussion.
Thank yku
Apr 14, 2015, 09:20 AM
#38
I think you are thinking about too hard: it's a product, it's an option to consider if flex fuel capability is a parameter of importance and interest.
If you find it lesser value proposition then AEM stand alone and numerous other options, purchase the one that gives you best value.
Why the suggestion to reverse engineer or any other put downs: this product is not imposed on you, it's a solution available on free market, treat it as such to help you make best decision, rather then treating it as if it belongs to the "Evo Community" and therefore was and should all be free, and was somehow taken from you/community.
If you find it lesser value proposition then AEM stand alone and numerous other options, purchase the one that gives you best value.
Why the suggestion to reverse engineer or any other put downs: this product is not imposed on you, it's a solution available on free market, treat it as such to help you make best decision, rather then treating it as if it belongs to the "Evo Community" and therefore was and should all be free, and was somehow taken from you/community.
Many people are excited about the product but not excited about the way it is being marketed. I am no software or electronics engineer so i don't know how hard/easy it would be to do, but if it was set up such that the Fitronic box would be married to the xml/rom provided but the end user had full access to all tables I think it would be more beneficial to Fitronic in the long run (more business would be generated).
Apr 14, 2015, 01:59 PM
#40
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Why the suggestion to reverse engineer or any other put downs: this product is not imposed on you, it's a solution available on free market, treat it as such to help you make best decision, rather then treating it as if it belongs to the "Evo Community" and therefore was and should all be free, and was somehow taken from you/community.
Makes sense?
I don't think anyone is "acting like it belongs to Evo community". I think we're saying that limiting it to a few channels for sale is limiting the sales of it.
You're product, you're money. Whenever you all feel like you've made your money back and hopefully decide its ok to sell it direct to the consumer without strings attached then I'll be the first one to sign up.
Apr 14, 2015, 02:18 PM
#41
FYI
I am customer of FiTronic, not resseller or FiTronic employee.
Everything is compromise of some sort.
Every product and business is to some degree targeted/optimized for certain audience.
Glad you like the "idea", and hopefully there may be someday a method of addressing your wishes of free XML while not compromising FiTronic IP.
As much as this discussion is led by seemingly capable self tuners, majority of Evo owners will be happy to have professional tune provided, based on long experience with general community in California. Only limited number of DIY hobbyists are proficient in theory and practice of Engine Management Calibration, especially flex fuel and Ethanol inherent characteristic tolerance for timing advance leading to potentially dangerous advancing past MBT.
I am customer of FiTronic, not resseller or FiTronic employee.
Everything is compromise of some sort.
Every product and business is to some degree targeted/optimized for certain audience.
Glad you like the "idea", and hopefully there may be someday a method of addressing your wishes of free XML while not compromising FiTronic IP.
As much as this discussion is led by seemingly capable self tuners, majority of Evo owners will be happy to have professional tune provided, based on long experience with general community in California. Only limited number of DIY hobbyists are proficient in theory and practice of Engine Management Calibration, especially flex fuel and Ethanol inherent characteristic tolerance for timing advance leading to potentially dangerous advancing past MBT.
Apr 15, 2015, 02:06 PM
#43
FYI
I am customer of FiTronic, not resseller or FiTronic employee.
Everything is compromise of some sort.
Every product and business is to some degree targeted/optimized for certain audience.
Glad you like the "idea", and hopefully there may be someday a method of addressing your wishes of free XML while not compromising FiTronic IP.
As much as this discussion is led by seemingly capable self tuners, majority of Evo owners will be happy to have professional tune provided, based on long experience with general community in California. Only limited number of DIY hobbyists are proficient in theory and practice of Engine Management Calibration, especially flex fuel and Ethanol inherent characteristic tolerance for timing advance leading to potentially dangerous advancing past MBT.
I am customer of FiTronic, not resseller or FiTronic employee.
Everything is compromise of some sort.
Every product and business is to some degree targeted/optimized for certain audience.
Glad you like the "idea", and hopefully there may be someday a method of addressing your wishes of free XML while not compromising FiTronic IP.
As much as this discussion is led by seemingly capable self tuners, majority of Evo owners will be happy to have professional tune provided, based on long experience with general community in California. Only limited number of DIY hobbyists are proficient in theory and practice of Engine Management Calibration, especially flex fuel and Ethanol inherent characteristic tolerance for timing advance leading to potentially dangerous advancing past MBT.
If you are going to even mention intellectual property, where is all the credit for Tehpra and the rest of the crew who helped develop new ROMs over the years? Is this not based off of the Tephra V7 ROM already, the XML/ROM files freely available to the public?
I would say there are just as many if not more "hobbyist" tuners out there than "professional" tuners that know what they are doing. That is not the point, nobody is talking about learning to tune their cars on ethanol. The issue is not giving the customer full access and control of the product.
Last edited by evo8426; Apr 15, 2015 at 02:11 PM.
Apr 15, 2015, 10:14 PM
#44
Theres no easy way to just share an xml, and say hey don't share that or profit off that please. Not going to happen. That's why its not going to be available to public at this time.
It is still utilizing something open source. Its not to be compared to a password protected standalone.
If there was a way to key the product to each car / programmer per say, then we would release it no problem. The problem here is, the product will be spread, people wont use the hardware we put a lot of time into, and people are going to take advantage of it. Maybe even make their own hardware and attempt to resell and profit off our hard work.
There's just not enough security with the stock ecu easily to just publicly sell something like this. Its pretty easy to understand this.
It is still utilizing something open source. Its not to be compared to a password protected standalone.
If there was a way to key the product to each car / programmer per say, then we would release it no problem. The problem here is, the product will be spread, people wont use the hardware we put a lot of time into, and people are going to take advantage of it. Maybe even make their own hardware and attempt to resell and profit off our hard work.
There's just not enough security with the stock ecu easily to just publicly sell something like this. Its pretty easy to understand this.
Why the suggestion to reverse engineer or any other put downs: this product is not imposed on you, it's a solution available on free market, treat it as such to help you make best decision, rather then treating it as if it belongs to the "Evo Community" and therefore was and should all be free, and was somehow taken from you/community.
Makes sense?
Makes sense?
Many people are excited about the product but not excited about the way it is being marketed. I am no software or electronics engineer so i don't know how hard/easy it would be to do, but if it was set up such that the Fitronic box would be married to the xml/rom provided but the end user had full access to all tables I think it would be more beneficial to Fitronic in the long run (more business would be generated).
E.g a few years ago ECUFlash started blocking non Tactrix cables. An enterprising member of this forum who knew CIL (what .Net compiles to) simply figured out how the block was being done and undid it in maybe 2 hours of work. That's why I keep saying if the only way to get that money back is by "obfuscating" and "hiding" this magic xml.....
As much as this discussion is led by seemingly capable self tuners, majority of Evo owners will be happy to have professional tune provided, based on long experience with general community in California. Only limited number of DIY hobbyists are proficient in theory and practice of Engine Management Calibration, especially flex fuel and Ethanol inherent characteristic tolerance for timing advance leading to potentially dangerous advancing past MBT.
Last edited by codgi; Apr 15, 2015 at 10:25 PM.
Apr 16, 2015, 09:25 AM
#45
The actual person who buys the product never gets the actual XML we designed on our end. We are not selling the XML. We include a custom XML with the product that allows the customer to see mostly all the tables so they still have control over their car, but we don't share the XML we use over here that has a bunch more tables.
This was designed to be exclusive so we can target our audience and offer an exclusive product that sets us aside from the rest. Right now we don't want it mainstream, its more for our regular customers who purchase tunes direct from us.
Hope that makes sense.
I also think people use the word "professional" pretty loosely sometimes. If a professional entails getting cars done fast and taking the customers money and giving a sub par result then i don't ever want to be a professional. I still take 3-5hrs tuning cars or more sometimes if I have to troubleshoot for the customer, and I've tuned a very large amount to date. The last thing id want, is someone rushing my car if I have thousands upon thousands of dollars invested into it.
Quality should always come before quantity. There's a reason I'm still a vendor on this forum and many have come and gone. I know how to invest my $ smartly and know when something is worth paying for and when its not. I'll support this forum until the platform dies off.
This was designed to be exclusive so we can target our audience and offer an exclusive product that sets us aside from the rest. Right now we don't want it mainstream, its more for our regular customers who purchase tunes direct from us.
Hope that makes sense.
I also think people use the word "professional" pretty loosely sometimes. If a professional entails getting cars done fast and taking the customers money and giving a sub par result then i don't ever want to be a professional. I still take 3-5hrs tuning cars or more sometimes if I have to troubleshoot for the customer, and I've tuned a very large amount to date. The last thing id want, is someone rushing my car if I have thousands upon thousands of dollars invested into it.
Quality should always come before quantity. There's a reason I'm still a vendor on this forum and many have come and gone. I know how to invest my $ smartly and know when something is worth paying for and when its not. I'll support this forum until the platform dies off.