Evo 8 - Stock Block - BW SX200 - GSC S3 - E70
Oct 4, 2017, 06:05 AM
#16
Evolved Member
All good, always good to debate points when discussing technical topics and get different frame of references. Good numbers on your 5858 setup.
Seems like BW is starting to follow the Garrett GTX marketing mould of pairing very high flowing compressor wheels with great advertised flow rates to existing turbine wheel configurations that reach their choke limit before the compressor wheel does.
I have a sense that the S369 SX-E will be a similar case
Seems like BW is starting to follow the Garrett GTX marketing mould of pairing very high flowing compressor wheels with great advertised flow rates to existing turbine wheel configurations that reach their choke limit before the compressor wheel does.
I have a sense that the S369 SX-E will be a similar case
You should be an engineer.....BTW some people aren't afraid of running 45psi boost, that's why they run these wheel combinations.
Oct 4, 2017, 02:59 PM
#17
Evolving Member
By the way cupped tip is for flow, flat tip is for response...
Last edited by RWD4G63; Oct 4, 2017 at 03:05 PM.
Oct 4, 2017, 05:05 PM
#18
Evolved Member
Oct 4, 2017, 05:15 PM
#20
Evolved Member
The first two pics are SX-E turbine as you can see the angle is slightly different and the SX-E has a 10 degree back sweep (clip) and the EFR has zero backsweep with a steeper angle. Which one do think flows more?
My buddies 6870 has even more backsweep and less angle on the blades. That's why a 70mm exducer can flow as much or more than a 74mm exducer.
Blade shape is not blade angle or clip, they are different in those aspects. They changed the blades on some EFR's from this old shape with right angles that look more like bends.
My buddies 6870 has even more backsweep and less angle on the blades. That's why a 70mm exducer can flow as much or more than a 74mm exducer.
Blade shape is not blade angle or clip, they are different in those aspects. They changed the blades on some EFR's from this old shape with right angles that look more like bends.
Last edited by 2winscroll; Oct 4, 2017 at 06:12 PM.
Oct 5, 2017, 03:23 PM
#23
Evolved Member
Oct 6, 2017, 04:33 AM
#24
Evolving Member
WTF are you talking about? It has the same blade profile besides the backing plate. Why is that hard to understand? Sorry I don't have both turbos here to give you a side by side, but considering Full-Race helped develop the lineup, I think I trust them to give out accurate information about them. But hey, you're welcome to disagree, just like the other thread on this turbo that you kept going on and on about with zero valid points.
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Strm Trpr (Oct 6, 2017)
Oct 6, 2017, 08:31 AM
#25
Evolving Member
Tom, can you please contact the owner of this turbo and find out for sure if it's the older S200SX which is rated at the 58lbs/min like you stated in your original post.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...sx-7670-turbo/
There are a few of the older S200SX's.
https://agpturbo.com/s2-s200-series/
The S252SXE is rated at 55lbs/min, so this dyno plot is not this turbo.
The S257SXE is rated at 64lbs/min https://agpturbo.com/borg-warner-s25...-12769095003/?
Oh, and which hotside please?
Judging by the engine bay pic, that's not a twin scroll manifold.
Chances are its an open T3 which would explain the lag in the boost curve.
S3's have a lot of duration and overlap which leads to reversion in non-twin scroll set-ups which add lag.
I've read about STI's spooling the S257SXE in the 1.22 A/R T4 hotside to 24psi by 4,100rpm.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=24
I'm not sure how they compare to Evo's, but from what I've read they spool turbos slower than Evo's and make less power/psi than Evo's even with the 0.5L increase in displacement.
And if anyone cares, ^^^ guys build thread.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2796105
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...sx-7670-turbo/
There are a few of the older S200SX's.
https://agpturbo.com/s2-s200-series/
The S252SXE is rated at 55lbs/min, so this dyno plot is not this turbo.
The S257SXE is rated at 64lbs/min https://agpturbo.com/borg-warner-s25...-12769095003/?
Oh, and which hotside please?
Judging by the engine bay pic, that's not a twin scroll manifold.
Chances are its an open T3 which would explain the lag in the boost curve.
S3's have a lot of duration and overlap which leads to reversion in non-twin scroll set-ups which add lag.
I've read about STI's spooling the S257SXE in the 1.22 A/R T4 hotside to 24psi by 4,100rpm.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=24
I'm not sure how they compare to Evo's, but from what I've read they spool turbos slower than Evo's and make less power/psi than Evo's even with the 0.5L increase in displacement.
And if anyone cares, ^^^ guys build thread.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2796105
Last edited by Strm Trpr; Oct 6, 2017 at 08:58 AM.
Oct 6, 2017, 04:34 PM
#27
Evolved Member
Might as well make this fun...my guess is it's a .83 a/r twin volute on a open T4 header. But I know nothing about hotsides remember? so I'm probably wrong.
I'm sure it's not an s257sxe, that's a s256 cast wheel because it's maxed out.
I'm sure it's not an s257sxe, that's a s256 cast wheel because it's maxed out.
Last edited by 2winscroll; Oct 6, 2017 at 08:15 PM.
Oct 10, 2017, 06:02 PM
#28
Evolved Member
Err I don't think Full-Race had anything at all to do with designing them, the S200 series have been around a long time for a start - Full-Race sell their turbos and design kits to suit them and have a good relationship, but that is different from being the authority on them.
It's really easy to see where Full-Race's info directly contradict's Borg Warner's own documentation on their turbos, compare the EFR9174 and EFR9180 data on Full-Race's site - they specifically say "The use of a 74mm turbine wheel allows for a max turbo speed of 125k RPM vs 116k for the bigger EFR9180" when the "116k limit" is completely about compressor choke flow for the 91mm compressor wheel. By suggesting you can run to 125000rpm they are basically advising you can run past the stonewall limit for that compressor because it has a smaller turbine.
There are literally two versions of the compressor map on this page which refer to that ~116krpm limit, one with rpm provided and also the "560m/s" maximum tip speed Borg Warner list for the whole range... which equates to 560m.s/(91mm / 1000 * pi)*60
= 117,529rpm.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...-9174-turbo-1/
It's really easy to see where Full-Race's info directly contradict's Borg Warner's own documentation on their turbos, compare the EFR9174 and EFR9180 data on Full-Race's site - they specifically say "The use of a 74mm turbine wheel allows for a max turbo speed of 125k RPM vs 116k for the bigger EFR9180" when the "116k limit" is completely about compressor choke flow for the 91mm compressor wheel. By suggesting you can run to 125000rpm they are basically advising you can run past the stonewall limit for that compressor because it has a smaller turbine.
There are literally two versions of the compressor map on this page which refer to that ~116krpm limit, one with rpm provided and also the "560m/s" maximum tip speed Borg Warner list for the whole range... which equates to 560m.s/(91mm / 1000 * pi)*60
= 117,529rpm.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...-9174-turbo-1/
Last edited by MrLith; Oct 10, 2017 at 06:09 PM.
Oct 12, 2017, 02:20 PM
#29
Evolving Member
Err I don't think Full-Race had anything at all to do with designing them, the S200 series have been around a long time for a start - Full-Race sell their turbos and design kits to suit them and have a good relationship, but that is different from being the authority on them.
It's really easy to see where Full-Race's info directly contradict's Borg Warner's own documentation on their turbos, compare the EFR9174 and EFR9180 data on Full-Race's site - they specifically say "The use of a 74mm turbine wheel allows for a max turbo speed of 125k RPM vs 116k for the bigger EFR9180" when the "116k limit" is completely about compressor choke flow for the 91mm compressor wheel. By suggesting you can run to 125000rpm they are basically advising you can run past the stonewall limit for that compressor because it has a smaller turbine.
There are literally two versions of the compressor map on this page which refer to that ~116krpm limit, one with rpm provided and also the "560m/s" maximum tip speed Borg Warner list for the whole range... which equates to 560m.s/(91mm / 1000 * pi)*60
= 117,529rpm.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...-9174-turbo-1/
It's really easy to see where Full-Race's info directly contradict's Borg Warner's own documentation on their turbos, compare the EFR9174 and EFR9180 data on Full-Race's site - they specifically say "The use of a 74mm turbine wheel allows for a max turbo speed of 125k RPM vs 116k for the bigger EFR9180" when the "116k limit" is completely about compressor choke flow for the 91mm compressor wheel. By suggesting you can run to 125000rpm they are basically advising you can run past the stonewall limit for that compressor because it has a smaller turbine.
There are literally two versions of the compressor map on this page which refer to that ~116krpm limit, one with rpm provided and also the "560m/s" maximum tip speed Borg Warner list for the whole range... which equates to 560m.s/(91mm / 1000 * pi)*60
= 117,529rpm.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...-9174-turbo-1/
Full-Race worked closely with Borg to develop the EFR line, and thus have extremely close ties with Borg. If anyone had proper documentation, it would be them.
This thread has gotten way off track anyway. Someday we'll see some S200SXE results I'm sure...
Oct 12, 2017, 06:11 PM
#30
Evolved Member
Do you really think people never push turbos past their choke flow limits? You think the Precisions and FP turbos on top level import drag cars are on the map at 70psi?
Full-Race worked closely with Borg to develop the EFR line, and thus have extremely close ties with Borg. If anyone had proper documentation, it would be them.
This thread has gotten way off track anyway. Someday we'll see some S200SXE results I'm sure...
Full-Race worked closely with Borg to develop the EFR line, and thus have extremely close ties with Borg. If anyone had proper documentation, it would be them.
This thread has gotten way off track anyway. Someday we'll see some S200SXE results I'm sure...
You realise that the choke is because once the air reaches the local speed of sound at the inducer it is literally impossible to move more air, right? There may be a bit of headroom on the map depending on how whoever mapped it out have defined it but at the end of the day there is an absolute limit enforced by physics themselves... as you get near that limit the efficiency is going to plummet and as you try and push more airflow the shaft speed is going to skyrocket in relation to that flow.
Anyway, you missed the point by miles - if you read or understood what I was getting at you'd not have said what you just said. The official Borg Warner documentation directly contradicts a third parties marketing speel.