Buschur Racing dyno thread.....new developments.
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2004
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Originally Posted by bryans2k
David, why don't you try making a video of the wastegate to see what it is actually physically doing. It seems to me the only possible way for it to lose boost was if it was opening.
I know you modified the housing to put an external wastegate on it but that would just duplicate the issue.
I say try different boost controllers on the external setup.
bryan
I know you modified the housing to put an external wastegate on it but that would just duplicate the issue.
I say try different boost controllers on the external setup.
bryan
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Joined: Mar 2004
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There has never been a 16g combo, in any iteration, that has held 24PSI to redline so I don't understand why anyone is spinning their wheels trying to make it work. In David's earlier posts, he was talking about a taper from a 21.8PSI peak which is more reasonable. I don't care what you do, but a 16g is not going to hold 24PSI with that compressor wheel.
My earlier posts about the boost leak tester were in regards to the turbo's inability to not hold boost in the 19-21PSI range(not 24).
My earlier posts about the boost leak tester were in regards to the turbo's inability to not hold boost in the 19-21PSI range(not 24).
I think the turbo will never hold 21-22psi to redline on a car with ever bolt on in existance. The engine's VE is just too high and the compressor just can't keep up. I think we are all beating a dead horse.
Thanks for the info, Mike. I've been meaning to check mine for a while ... it has typically held 19-20psi when I'm tuned to 23psi max boost, but I'm getting a few rattles and whistles, so I'm thinking it's starting to leak somewhere.
l8r)
l8r)
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Updates.
The MR housing, as nice as it looks, performs exactly the same as the TME turbine housing. I can see no difference anywhere in the curve.
We machined the entire top half of the turbine housing off, very cool stuff. Then we put the external gate directly on the wastegate port. I figured this was going to be the absolute ultimate set-up. Did very little. It did perform pretty close to stock but doing it like this still left a pretty large spike in the boost and then no extra gain really up on the top end.
I guess the best bet is just a normal 10.5 housing with the internal gate. Mitsubishi did some homework on these turbos guys.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
The MR housing, as nice as it looks, performs exactly the same as the TME turbine housing. I can see no difference anywhere in the curve.
We machined the entire top half of the turbine housing off, very cool stuff. Then we put the external gate directly on the wastegate port. I figured this was going to be the absolute ultimate set-up. Did very little. It did perform pretty close to stock but doing it like this still left a pretty large spike in the boost and then no extra gain really up on the top end.
I guess the best bet is just a normal 10.5 housing with the internal gate. Mitsubishi did some homework on these turbos guys.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Do you have 10.5 hotsides and what is the plan for turbo housings as they relate to the ported and polished manifold and o2 housings. Are you planning on offering something to go with the mani and o2?
I have my car back together and the cat worked out well considering the situation I was put in by another vendor. I am real close to taking the head off since I am doing springs and retainers and just having it ported. (it's free) If I do then I would like to put a hotside on there while is is back apart again. I have not even run it yet. I am still waiting on cams to come in from another vendor but may have to start shopping for them since it's been 2 weeks of waiting for them to come in. I suppose you are going to reply and say "I have 272s in stock!"
Thanks
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 139
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From: NC
wow.... made it to the end again. as you can see i'm the n00b and i'm pretty lost of the last few pages but going back to the C/D shootout I would say take your best stuff out there that you can reproduce. I wont be spending a ton of money on my car but I am going to get the best stuff I can find, and when i'm looking and I see good results from stage 0 on up to a car that does very well if not 1st place in C/D then that is more than likely where I will spend my money. That along with the fact that you have so much info on all of your parts. When I buy something weather it costs $20 or $30,000 I do my homework and I buy on facts and word of mouth.
Go out there and show us and Mitsu what you can do with the car. and get us a mitsu BR model instead of a MR!
Go out there and show us and Mitsu what you can do with the car. and get us a mitsu BR model instead of a MR!
I have followed through the entire 41 pages over the past couple months and have learned so much from this. Just a couple quick questions for you Dave.
Does the car hold boost better on the street than on the dyno?
Does the turbo spool faster on the street than on the dyno?
If the answer to either of these is yes, could some of the problems you are running into be related to the dyno not putting enough load on the engine for the turbo to operate the same as it would on the street? Kind of like when you step on the gas in Neutral vs. getting on the gas in 4th gear?
Just an idea. What do you think?
Thanks for all the hard work you have put in over the past few months. The EVO community is better and stronger because of it.
EVOlutionary
Does the car hold boost better on the street than on the dyno?
Does the turbo spool faster on the street than on the dyno?
If the answer to either of these is yes, could some of the problems you are running into be related to the dyno not putting enough load on the engine for the turbo to operate the same as it would on the street? Kind of like when you step on the gas in Neutral vs. getting on the gas in 4th gear?
Just an idea. What do you think?
Thanks for all the hard work you have put in over the past few months. The EVO community is better and stronger because of it.
EVOlutionary
Tons and tons of testing trying to come up with the best possible combination for the stock turbo.
Mike pointed out that no 16g can hold 24 psi to redline in any combination, I don't agree with that. In a milder car without huge cams and having everything ported and 3" exhaust a big 16g could definetely hold up to 24 psi to redline. Might have a large boost spike but the boost at redline could be held that high. Actually the RS would probably do it if I wanted 30 psi to start with, but that isn't the goal.
With the external gate on the 10.5 housing I was able to keep the boost extremely stable, 21.8 peak with 19.8 at redline. Problem is the lag down low wasn't worth the trade off.
Trying the MR housing the car repsoned about the same as the TME 10.5 housing. Putting the wastegate directly over the MR port was better than the way I posted the pictures on here of it on the 02 housing but still not as good down low as the internal gate. Looking at the datalogs that is from quite a bit less boost down low comparing the two. In other words the internal gate makes more boost much sooner making a ton more low end power.
Timzcat,
Yes, we have 10.5 MR turbine housings in stock, they aren't cheap though. $600 for a new ported housing.
Evoutionary,
This car hasn't been on the street since last October, only strapped to the dyno. The boost usually stays the same from the dyno to the street but the spool up is effected (usually faster on the street) and the AFR's are way off going from one to another.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Mike pointed out that no 16g can hold 24 psi to redline in any combination, I don't agree with that. In a milder car without huge cams and having everything ported and 3" exhaust a big 16g could definetely hold up to 24 psi to redline. Might have a large boost spike but the boost at redline could be held that high. Actually the RS would probably do it if I wanted 30 psi to start with, but that isn't the goal.
With the external gate on the 10.5 housing I was able to keep the boost extremely stable, 21.8 peak with 19.8 at redline. Problem is the lag down low wasn't worth the trade off.
Trying the MR housing the car repsoned about the same as the TME 10.5 housing. Putting the wastegate directly over the MR port was better than the way I posted the pictures on here of it on the 02 housing but still not as good down low as the internal gate. Looking at the datalogs that is from quite a bit less boost down low comparing the two. In other words the internal gate makes more boost much sooner making a ton more low end power.
Timzcat,
Yes, we have 10.5 MR turbine housings in stock, they aren't cheap though. $600 for a new ported housing.
Evoutionary,
This car hasn't been on the street since last October, only strapped to the dyno. The boost usually stays the same from the dyno to the street but the spool up is effected (usually faster on the street) and the AFR's are way off going from one to another.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
This car hasn't been on the street since last October, only strapped to the dyno. The boost usually stays the same from the dyno to the street but the spool up is effected (usually faster on the street) and the AFR's are way off going from one to another.
On the street they get quite a bit LEANER. This is one of the big reasons I prefer to street tune over dyno tune. The dyno gives you numbers, that's it.
A 600+ EVO was finished here few weeks ago. On the dyno AFR's were 11.8, on the street they were as lean as 12.7. I think I ended up adding close to 15% more fuel to compensate.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
A 600+ EVO was finished here few weeks ago. On the dyno AFR's were 11.8, on the street they were as lean as 12.7. I think I ended up adding close to 15% more fuel to compensate.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
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From: Port Saint Lucie, FL (South FL)
David - ive been following your posts and have slowly started asking myself questions that I should be asking you. You are doing all this to the stock turbo but how much would all this cost? And are you doing this research so that you can offer some type of new product in the future? Or are you doing it just to prove something about the stock turbo? Also how much would the cost of what you are doing be diff from just replacing the system with a better turbo all together?
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
On the street they get quite a bit LEANER. This is one of the big reasons I prefer to street tune over dyno tune. The dyno gives you numbers, that's it.
A 600+ EVO was finished here few weeks ago. On the dyno AFR's were 11.8, on the street they were as lean as 12.7. I think I ended up adding close to 15% more fuel to compensate.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
A 600+ EVO was finished here few weeks ago. On the dyno AFR's were 11.8, on the street they were as lean as 12.7. I think I ended up adding close to 15% more fuel to compensate.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
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Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Tons and tons of testing trying to come up with the best possible combination for the stock turbo.
Mike pointed out that no 16g can hold 24 psi to redline in any combination, I don't agree with that. In a milder car without huge cams and having everything ported and 3" exhaust a big 16g could definetely hold up to 24 psi to redline. Might have a large boost spike but the boost at redline could be held that high. Actually the RS would probably do it if I wanted 30 psi to start with, but that isn't the goal.
With the external gate on the 10.5 housing I was able to keep the boost extremely stable, 21.8 peak with 19.8 at redline. Problem is the lag down low wasn't worth the trade off.
Trying the MR housing the car repsoned about the same as the TME 10.5 housing. Putting the wastegate directly over the MR port was better than the way I posted the pictures on here of it on the 02 housing but still not as good down low as the internal gate. Looking at the datalogs that is from quite a bit less boost down low comparing the two. In other words the internal gate makes more boost much sooner making a ton more low end power.
Timzcat,
Yes, we have 10.5 MR turbine housings in stock, they aren't cheap though. $600 for a new ported housing.
Evoutionary,
This car hasn't been on the street since last October, only strapped to the dyno. The boost usually stays the same from the dyno to the street but the spool up is effected (usually faster on the street) and the AFR's are way off going from one to another.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Mike pointed out that no 16g can hold 24 psi to redline in any combination, I don't agree with that. In a milder car without huge cams and having everything ported and 3" exhaust a big 16g could definetely hold up to 24 psi to redline. Might have a large boost spike but the boost at redline could be held that high. Actually the RS would probably do it if I wanted 30 psi to start with, but that isn't the goal.
With the external gate on the 10.5 housing I was able to keep the boost extremely stable, 21.8 peak with 19.8 at redline. Problem is the lag down low wasn't worth the trade off.
Trying the MR housing the car repsoned about the same as the TME 10.5 housing. Putting the wastegate directly over the MR port was better than the way I posted the pictures on here of it on the 02 housing but still not as good down low as the internal gate. Looking at the datalogs that is from quite a bit less boost down low comparing the two. In other words the internal gate makes more boost much sooner making a ton more low end power.
Timzcat,
Yes, we have 10.5 MR turbine housings in stock, they aren't cheap though. $600 for a new ported housing.
Evoutionary,
This car hasn't been on the street since last October, only strapped to the dyno. The boost usually stays the same from the dyno to the street but the spool up is effected (usually faster on the street) and the AFR's are way off going from one to another.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Dave: What have you determined is the best bang for the buck? What if any are the main differences from a MR 10.5 to a GSR 10.5 housing,and TME 10.5? Forging Materials only or?