lol thats awsome its like u beat the hell out of it i cant beleave it lasted that long shows how nice the engine is ....

 

Okay, speaking from limited personal experience, it sounds like you probably cracked the top of your #4 piston due to detonation. Have you pulled the head off yet? You really need to pull the head and inspect the cylinder head and cylinder walls for damage before you declare either a total loss.

In my case I had cracked ring lands and rings on both cylinders #2 & #3. Cylinder #2 was reading ZERO compression. Despite this neither the cylinders nor the head were damaged to the point where boring the cylinders out .020" and polishing the head wasn't possible. I didn't end up doing that since I had a cylinder & a head set aside for a "rainy day". Opted to send out my spare core and have that built.

The total cost of the job really depends on what you choose "from the menu" for the massage work and the quality of the parts. An assembled 2.0 shortblock (with a good core) will run any from $2500 to $3500. Building a 2.3 stroker using a 4G64 crank adds about $700 to $800 to the cost of a build. This buys you a new forged 4G64 crank and the clearancing of the block. Cylinder head work will range anywhere from $500 for a "freshened" head to $2000+ for a full port, polish & oversized valves. I'm going to guess you're looking at $3500 to $6500 just for motor work. Again, the total cost largely depends on what parts you choose and how much "blueprinting" is actually done and whether or not you decide to have the cylinder head ported. Don't forget to add the labor costs associated with the removal and replacement of the motor and any other "while were at it" items like the clutch.

While your at it you might want to consider:
-clutch
-transmission
-turbo upgrade (if stroking)
-front diff upgrade

All that crap added together along with the motor and tuning can push the cost of the project north of $15,000.

If you're really looking to go cheap, you might want to see if you can pull the head, drop the oil pan and hone the cylinders. If the pitting or scoring isn't bad then you might be able to get away with just new rods, pistons & rings. Personally I wouldn't take that route unless I was under a very tight budget and all I was interested in was returning the car to service ASAP. I'd be leery of this approach since it would be impossible to have the crank magnafluxed to check for cracks and given the beating you gave the pistons, there is a slight chance the crank was stressed.

Send me a PM if you want to discuss further.

 

Way to take responsiblity like a man! Sorry it happened but least you learned a hard lesson. If you are willing to go down the line of AEM tuning, then you may want to consider the Jun 2.2L block or the Tomei 2.4L block and rebuilt that way ..... if your wallet can handle the punishment...

 

Exactly. You get what you pay for.

While the factory stuff is good, it's obviously not good enough to do what this guy wants to do. (Although I doubt a built motor would tolerate the abuse any better) A balanced and blueprinted motor will outrun and outlast an OEM piece assuming the built motor uses "street" components.

 

I would have to disagree with this. These motors are not that complicating, and if you know what you're doing, they can be easy to rebuild. Although I have never rebuilt a 4g63, I have rebuilt many N/A honda motors. I have a built 1.8L vtec motor with aftermarket pistons and rods I rebuilt in my garage with only a few specialty tools, so far I've but about 50,000 miles on that motor with about 2,000 of those miles being on a road course. That thing can wind out to 8.5K rpms all day long without an issue. As long as you find a very competent mechanic who has the factory manual with all the specs for clearances and he's diligent, there is nothing to worry about. I guess it all really depends on what your plans are for the car. From what I read in your first post it seems you are looking to push the limits of this motor, therefore I would reccommend aftermarket rods and pistons to take the abuse you throw at it. For the averyage joe I would reccommend a new short block.

My $0.02

 

Oh, and don't forget to have your oil cooler either replaced with a new one or flushed by an FAA certified repair facility such as Pacific Oil Coolers. Also, make sure you replace the oil pump too.

I'm fairly certain that the oil is filtered after it's pump from the oil sump and through the oil cooler, there's no point in circulating bearing or piston "soup" back into your oil filter after you've dropped so much coin on a new motor. All it would take is to have the overpressure valve open and you'd hose your motor pretty damn fast.

 

Obviously you are a top notch mechanic, and Propellerhead has had some good luck with his built motors. I'm talking from 40 years of experience messing with cars myself plus the experience of many other people...... I don't doubt that it's possible to build great engines (top notch mechanics and engine builders do it everyday). However, myself and most people I know plus others I've heard about have had very bad luck with built or re-built motors. I know it's pretty simple and straightforward thing to do if you have knowledge and equipment/tools, but for some reason it seems to be beyond the ability of most mechanics

Oh yeah, I agree that Dutch is punishing his engine a lot and a replacement stock motor will not last too long under the same conditions. I'd say for his application and manner of driving, he prolly needs a fully built motor with the best and strongest components available as well as a very conservative tune and a welded shut hood

 

I agree with you. I wouldn't ask a mechanic to build a motor either. But let's make the distinction between having a mechanic rebuild a motor and taking the motor to a machine shop and having it built by a professional motor builder. A competent machinist understands the measurements & tolerances involved and has the tools at their disposal to make adjustments or corrections when parts don't measure correctly or have proper clearances. Furthermore choosing a machinist who has experience with a particular type of motor can make a world of difference in terms of durability, reliability and power.

 

4g64 crank, CP or Ross pistons, Pauter turbo rods. Have a good reputable builder like Magnus balance, blueprint, and assemble, and you will never have to worry about your engine again if you tune it properly.

 

I've heard all this before, and I'm aware of all sorts of aftermarket pistos, rods, cranks, etc. The thing that confuses me is that most modern engines seem to have been built with custom parts for each cylinder right out of the factory. Unless I'm very mistaken, there are markings at each specific part from each cylinder which must be used to order replacement parts. I also understand that you have to be very careful not mixd up the parts so that each cylinder is built with the exact parts to match that bore, etc. In the old days for instance, they had to carefully match the bearings at each journal of the crank with plasti-gage to get the exact clearance and it was very easy to make a mistake, after that the engine would run for just a short time before the bearings spun in the journals and the engine went to knocking and pretty soon the engine seized and you had to rebuild it all over again. That was way back then when you could just replace pistons from the parts store... How can the new engines be simple to re-build?

I'd think they'd be real easy to screw up badly.... Oh yeah, the racing engine builders get a pretty penny for their motors..... Also, I don't know how long they'd last in a street car. The race car engines don't last a whole lot of races between rebuilds......

 

Nowhere did I say I was a top notch mechanic, nor did I try to imply so. Are you just butt hurt because I disagree with you? Lets not get snooty here. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 40 years of messing with cars, quite vague. I'm not sure what mechanics you've dealt with, maybe they were just lazy, or didn't take the time to make sure everything is correct. I personally have had great success building motors in my garage grassroots style with only taking key components like rods and crank shafts to machinists to check tolerances with specialty tools a regular person would not have. Many of my friends have also had great success. However, I think for the money spent to rebuild the block, you could put much stronger components in there for the same if not cheaper than buying another short block. What were the problems with these built motors you had? I bet it could be narrowed down to something that was over looked by whomever built the motor. But the good thing is everyone can learn from those mistakes.

 

Pistons from each cylinder should be the same diameter, again you just need to know and meet your piston to wall clearance for each cylinder. When buying new pistons, you take your pistons and the block to a good machinst so he can hone/bore the cylinders to meet the spec of piston to wall clearance. Usually parts are numbered because the crank journals, rod ends, and mains are slightly different sizes (At least in honda world). But the same rules apply as they do from building older motors. As long as your clearances and tolerances are met everywhere, you're good to go. You brought up using plastigauge, which is still used when doing this. At least it is what i used for checking rods and mains.

 

Wow, such great stuff here from everyone! I just went out for lunch and came back to a wealth of advice!

So, to answer some questions:

First off, no the direct-port NOS was *not* on. I haven't even tried it yet; there's still some work to be done in properly tee'ing into the fuel line, and I'm sure-as-hell not going to try a 100-shot as a dry system! (I do have *some* small measure of sense!)

Second, no, I haven't gotten the opportunity to look at the guts yet. I actually won't for some time; I just joined the Navy, and will be off in uncle-sam-land for at least 10 months before I'm done with enough training for me to get a weekend off (such is the life a new new SEAL recruit). However, once I get some time, that's going to be my first step. I just wanted to know how much, roughly, I will need to save up before I get this party started.

Finally, I'm still a little confused about my "menu". It sounds like there's some disagreement as to whether I should pick up stock stuff for replacement or not. Some of you seem to think I drive like a real bat-out-of-hell, but honestly, that stroll down 8.5k rpm lane was a first time experience. The car had been such a solid trooper out to 7k rpm for the last 18 months and 30k miles, I was starting to get an invincibility complex about that engine. I'm thinking I pushed it a little too hard. (D'ja think?)

I'm a little pissed at myself, of course, because I knew 28psi was way too much. I was putting off lowering it down to 20psi until *that night*; I had just found out that I wasn't really gaining any HP from pushing the stock turbo that high. As I now understand it, the stock turbo *can* generate that much boost, but it's so inefficient at that point that the extra front-pressure's benefit isn't overcoming the power lost from the massive back-pressure.

Also, I knew better than 8.5k rpm in 4th gear. I know what a stress that is on an engine; I just learned recently that there's more stress up there than at launch time. My clutch started slipping after I installed those cams, and guess where it slips? Right, when I step on the accellerator above 4k rpm.

Anyway, I digress. My point is, I don't push my car to the limit regularly, but when I do push it, I guess I can be a little brutal. I'm inclined to believe that I would have been fine if I'd stayed below the redline, and all I want is to have a car back that can run to 7k (ok, maybe 8k) rpm and not be damaged.

I will certainly post a wealth of pics when I get inside that thing. For now, it's driveable, and powerful enough to still make the clutch slip, so I'm thinking that the damage isn't cataclysmic.

Any other thoughts, now that you've got that extra info on board? Also, what do you think about me driving it around (errands and loose-ends and such) between now and when I ship out, on April 28th?

Thanks again!

 

All the same build processes in use today remain basically the same as they did 100 years ago. However the quality of an aftermarket rebuilt motor will be better today than was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. The precision of the tools available to machinists is far, far superior to what was available back then. Yeah, you still have to have a person who knows how to measure a part and have an above average IQ but the quality of the work, when the tools are used properly, is better than it used to be.

A racing motor doesn't last long because, well, it's raced! A race motor will recieve far more abuse than a street motor.

Any yes, any motor can be screwed up badly when placed in the wrong hands.

 

Uh, "front pressure" or "back pressure: had nothing to do with your motor breaking. Pushing 28psi on 93 octane and the resulting detonation is what killed your motor. Plain & simple. You need to run C16 (117 octane) race gas to push that kind of boost, regardless of how efficient the turbo is. There's also no way the stock turbo will push 28psi at 8,000 rpm. The stock turbo will taper down to 20 psi or less at those RPMs.

If I were you, I'd park the car. Continued use will potentially result in additional damage, possibly ruining the head or the block to the point where it can't be saved. What if one of your pistons is cracked and decides to split in two and wedge itself in the cylinder bore? Then you'd be talking about potentially a thrown rod and cracked block. Park it and sleep better at night... oh, and start saving at least $5000.