best front mount intercooler?
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I understand the reasons why a road tune might be a better way to test the efficiency of an intercooler, but the thing is would you be able to duplicate the exact same driving style, consistency while testing the two intercoolers. So till theres a way to do that, i would think fixing constants would be a more reliable method, or maybe there is no RIGHT method at this moment. Anyway, u like a nisei, get a nisei, to each their own =)
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Originally Posted by EVOONYOASS
First, Str8Ryda are you trying to educate Buschur on proper way to test products? Please tell us your backgroud in this field. What experience do you have?
Second, I haven't tested anything myself but I will give my personal opinion based on logic. If you test different products under the SAME airflow and the product under the same conditions and nothing has changed to compromise the data, why wouldn't you consider the data accurate? Nothing is present to compromise the data, right? Only a lack of proper airflow in your opinion. You say the fan plays a big role in the equation, but if all test were done on the same vehicle, the same psi, room temp, air flow(fan), and various sensors monitoring pressure drop and temperature in the piping of the intercooler, the data shouldn't be compromised or considered innaccurate.
You mention that "real driving" conditions would have more air pass over the intercoolers, but if the product shows to be efficient at those levels of air flow(fan) than why wouldn't they be more efficient at the actual "real life" airflow conditions? Correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't necessarily think you would see a dramatic JUMP from the results from one to the other if the airflow was slightly increased to mimic real life air flow conditions from a high flow fan. A wind tunnel would only help with showing real life conditions over the whole vehicle where as the high flow fan used with most dyno's does a sufficient job of duplicating the airflow over the intercooler.
If one intercooler showed a major increase was present with more airflow over the original tested dyno fan airflow. The initial test should show it yielded better results from the beginning. You shouldn't see a major jump from that little of an airflow increase, if you do something else has changed in the equation.
Second, I haven't tested anything myself but I will give my personal opinion based on logic. If you test different products under the SAME airflow and the product under the same conditions and nothing has changed to compromise the data, why wouldn't you consider the data accurate? Nothing is present to compromise the data, right? Only a lack of proper airflow in your opinion. You say the fan plays a big role in the equation, but if all test were done on the same vehicle, the same psi, room temp, air flow(fan), and various sensors monitoring pressure drop and temperature in the piping of the intercooler, the data shouldn't be compromised or considered innaccurate.
You mention that "real driving" conditions would have more air pass over the intercoolers, but if the product shows to be efficient at those levels of air flow(fan) than why wouldn't they be more efficient at the actual "real life" airflow conditions? Correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't necessarily think you would see a dramatic JUMP from the results from one to the other if the airflow was slightly increased to mimic real life air flow conditions from a high flow fan. A wind tunnel would only help with showing real life conditions over the whole vehicle where as the high flow fan used with most dyno's does a sufficient job of duplicating the airflow over the intercooler.
If one intercooler showed a major increase was present with more airflow over the original tested dyno fan airflow. The initial test should show it yielded better results from the beginning. You shouldn't see a major jump from that little of an airflow increase, if you do something else has changed in the equation.
Next, regarding the "controlled environment" vs "real driving conditions" (track/road), since your evaluation is based on logic/opinion not experience, not calculations, or based on data logging devices.
I understand how you assumed that if an intercooler proves to be "efficient" on the dyno, then naturally you assumed it would be MORE "efficient" under real world driving conditions. Allow me to provide you with a couple of scenarios.
1. What if, the "fan" blowing at the FMIC was rated at 30mph BUT, because of the "dense fin configuration"/ FPI (fins per inch) the external back pressure (created by the fin count/design) was rated at 7psi, and at 45mph (wind speeds) the external back pressure changed to 2 psi.
Logically, wouldn't you think that could change the performance of the FMIC cooling the charged air?
2. What if, the fan blowing at the FMIC was rated at 30 mph, and the FMIC was "designed" to operate at 50 mph. Would the data recorded on the dyno be accurate?
3. What if, the "fan" blowing, only covered 50% of the FMIC's given "surface area". Would you say that FMIC is no good?
Now, let me give you the flipside of things. If the testing was conducted on the same vehicle, same gear, same boost, etc., back to back, on the track. You can rule out a lot of factors which can corrupt the data.
Operating under real driving conditions will rule out things such as : minimum mph requirements, usable "surface area", fin design's, end tank designs, etc. One thing is for certain, regardless of "how" the "manufacturer" designed it, once it's on the car it will either work or not!
The only variable that can not be avoided is the temperature changes taking place during testing & while FMIC's are being changed. Which happens both on the dyno and under real driving conditions. They do have formulas to calculate and make corrections if required, just as they do for dyno sheets.
Wow, what a bunch of blind guys.
Buy whatever intercooler you want. Unlike most of you guys that are pissed off and yelling I am simply stating facts and what I have learned by testing, trial and error and many hundreds of cars we have built. What the hell do I know.
I'll take my pressure, temp and HP readings from the dyno like I always have and continue to move forward with all my testing that way. I can gaurantee you it is better than a road course butt dyno! haha
What we have gained and learned from testing on the dyno has always proven to also gain at the track.
Have a great day guys, some of you make sure you don't burn your hand on your "superior" intercoolers outlet side!
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Buy whatever intercooler you want. Unlike most of you guys that are pissed off and yelling I am simply stating facts and what I have learned by testing, trial and error and many hundreds of cars we have built. What the hell do I know.
I'll take my pressure, temp and HP readings from the dyno like I always have and continue to move forward with all my testing that way. I can gaurantee you it is better than a road course butt dyno! haha
What we have gained and learned from testing on the dyno has always proven to also gain at the track.
Have a great day guys, some of you make sure you don't burn your hand on your "superior" intercoolers outlet side!
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Originally Posted by Zeus
My interest in the Nisei IS based off of independent testing.
I have yet to see anyone make serious power with a Nisei product of any kind
I can speak from personal experience when I say that my new larger Buschur race fmic reduced my intake temps 45 degress plus lower than my previous standard ams fmic
Originally Posted by Rollaway
my BR FMic didnt fit... and now after 1+ years the center bracket is cracked and its rusted in some places
One of the side brakets was slightly off which could easily have been fixed
If I recall corectly it made over 25 whp more than the stock one in a controlled A - B test on the pruven dyno and even more power than the pruven fmic at the time
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
track, strip all the same. I go to the track, track being short for racetrack, a dragstrip is a racetrack.
rollaway, I would have for SURE never have told you that if your intercooler didn't fit it "wasn't my problem". You are for some reason further BS'ing here with a statement of, "A year later it is rusted". Aluminum doesn't rust.
As far as the comparison on the dyno. The dyno is convientent and the best place I can think of to do the testing. The track (yes track) isn't going to be as good, first off all you would have to do a track rental to get the time to actually do some fair testing, second you better get a very good driver that is consistent enough to keep the results the same. The ultimate test is going to be what the car does run, but trying to do back to back comparisons at the track is going to be extremely tough to do.
The dyno is a controlled environment. Each intercooler would have the same airflow, cool down times etc. You can measure temps, pressure drop and power gains.
As far as testing against ours, I will use whatever intercooler of our 3 I have to to beat Nisei's numbers, end of story. My guess is our standard or Deluxe will make atleast the same gains and our race will flat out stomp it. My other guess is as the intercooler is run again and again the power of the overly dense Nisei is going to keep on dropping off. Just a guess though.
BTW, basing expectations on track results wouldn't put the Nisei in 1st place, the fastests cars aren't running them.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
rollaway, I would have for SURE never have told you that if your intercooler didn't fit it "wasn't my problem". You are for some reason further BS'ing here with a statement of, "A year later it is rusted". Aluminum doesn't rust.
As far as the comparison on the dyno. The dyno is convientent and the best place I can think of to do the testing. The track (yes track) isn't going to be as good, first off all you would have to do a track rental to get the time to actually do some fair testing, second you better get a very good driver that is consistent enough to keep the results the same. The ultimate test is going to be what the car does run, but trying to do back to back comparisons at the track is going to be extremely tough to do.
The dyno is a controlled environment. Each intercooler would have the same airflow, cool down times etc. You can measure temps, pressure drop and power gains.
As far as testing against ours, I will use whatever intercooler of our 3 I have to to beat Nisei's numbers, end of story. My guess is our standard or Deluxe will make atleast the same gains and our race will flat out stomp it. My other guess is as the intercooler is run again and again the power of the overly dense Nisei is going to keep on dropping off. Just a guess though.
BTW, basing expectations on track results wouldn't put the Nisei in 1st place, the fastests cars aren't running them.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Originally Posted by DynoFlash
It would be nice to conduct a test of the Nisei unit at our upcomming dyno day David. Maybe we can find a volunteer who would like to participate in such a test ?
One more quick question for you. If I'm not mistaken, you have had AMS and Buschur on your personal car right?
Out of those 2 companies, which intercooler is better in your opinion? If not in hp, how about in fitment?
Last edited by Str8Ryda; Aug 29, 2005 at 06:02 PM.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Rollaway, if you still have the old BR intercooler please return it to me, I will repair it and relocate the mounts so they fit perfectly, for no charge. My guess is it is one of the early units that I was not involved in making the fixture for and that is why the mounts were off. I will be glad to fix it, you can then atleast sell it.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Although one of the side brackets was slightly off it was easy enough to fit on the car and it really kicked *** on the dyno
Originally Posted by Str8Ryda
That would be nice to see!!! Which intercooler would you use? Deluxe or Race? Also, does the Race core fit with the factory bumper beam support without modifications?
For everyone who comes down it will make for good entertainment value
Originally Posted by trinydex
here's some logic for you then. if you test a gt40 at 15 psi and you test a stock evo turbo at 15 psi, same pressure same conditions same ambient air which one is going to be "better". i bet you'd pick the stock evo turbo right? but what about when you're running at 30psi... oh ****... does that CHANGE THINGS?
Besides, I thought the arguement was the insufficient airflow over the intercooler with the dyno fan? Was this not the arguement earlier?
Originally Posted by trinydex
air flow matters... especially to an intercooler, the methodology used by putting a car on a dyno is actually detrimental to the bar and plate designs that so many tout as being the best. more heat sink means more heat sink... that means it's a door that swings both ways... if you don't have sufficient air flow to evacuate that heat... all you're doing is storing it so that it can go right back into the system.
just like turbos intercoolers have different efficiency ranges and that includes how well they cool at which speeds. you wouldn't run around at 25 miles per hour and at 7000 rpms all day and hope yer intercooler would do its work, so why would you expect the test results to be accurate?
just like turbos intercoolers have different efficiency ranges and that includes how well they cool at which speeds. you wouldn't run around at 25 miles per hour and at 7000 rpms all day and hope yer intercooler would do its work, so why would you expect the test results to be accurate?
My point was, if it was tested with what YOU would consider insufficient airflow over the intercooler and PASSED without "real life" road conditions airflow, How do you think it will perform WITH what you call the proper airflow over it? Don't you think it would be more efficient now that it has more air and cooler air flowing over it?
Originally Posted by trinydex
also... a wind tunnel is the PERFECT scenario, repeatable air flow etc. the fan does ****.... NOTHING compared to real mph air. why? cuz whe you ahve REAL mph air... the aerodynamics of your car come into play... when you have a splitter it creates a LARGE high pressure zone in the mouth of your bumper which directs air flow THROUGH your coolers, also in a wind tunnel and in real life the areas on your hood become low pressure zones where air is evacuated through the hood vents so that there is a sucking action through the engine bay which increases air flow. NONE OF THIS CAN BE DUBLICATED BY AN INDUSTRIAL FAN
Originally Posted by trinydex
and you know... this is all the fault of the stupid uninformed and retarded consumer. just like how all the coil overs in america suck... cuz everyone wants a soft ride that still lets them slam their car with 15 degrees of camber ONLY in the back. the testing that nisei does, their methodology is clean, accurate and above all it's ****IN EASY. ti's the best way to test... just put some damn temp sensors in and run the car on the road, log and display for the world to see. that's IT!!
Originally Posted by trinydex
why do you need dyno numbers? SHUT THE **** UP. i'm so tired of people allowing the mindless masses and mindless numbers control what they purchase therefore perpetuating the stupidity.
So should everybody go buy an AEM EMS just to log different parameters? Will this expensive equipment make you happier?
Last edited by EVOONYOASS; Aug 29, 2005 at 08:01 PM.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Rollaway - I dont think you are being fair in posting this as the unit which you recieved was a preliminary testing unit - pre-production which you recieved at a significant discount
One of the side brakets was slightly off which could easily have been fixed
If I recall corectly it made over 25 whp more than the stock one in a controlled A - B test on the pruven dyno and even more power than the pruven fmic at the time
One of the side brakets was slightly off which could easily have been fixed
If I recall corectly it made over 25 whp more than the stock one in a controlled A - B test on the pruven dyno and even more power than the pruven fmic at the time
Thanks Al, that clears up a lot.
That also explains the rust on the aluminum intercooler too.
David.. yes the fmic is one of your 1st units...
Al... we both know i have nothing but praise for Davids products...that why i have bought most of his products over the years and my car was one of the 1st few fast evos back in 2003 with his products...
Al... we both know i have nothing but praise for Davids products...that why i have bought most of his products over the years and my car was one of the 1st few fast evos back in 2003 with his products...
