if u look the the nisei website u will see that is has far more rows than the buschur. now if u have more rows with about the same area, it will be more dense. i am far from killing off any new guys. the nisei looks very very well made and for all i know it could be the best out there. but without tests we will never know. and i feel like these so called "TESTS" will ever happen publicly because it will jepordise a vendors buisness.

 

Hmnn...I thought fin density is measured by the number of fins over a length rather than area? Stuff like 20 fins per inch....

I too would like to buy the mystical 'best' product out there but the possibility of that happening is going to be lower if we help to limit our own choices by helping vendors kill each other off. If there's no competition, there's not going to be value or innovation. If we can't be sure, we should give the vendor or product the benefit of the doubt and allow them time/opportunity to prove themselves. Of course, when we are sure that a product downright sucks, I will gladly bring out my knives as well

 

I won't continue to argue either. I'd like those of you that didn't read Mike's from Forged Motorsports post to read it.

That is my largest concern with the Nisei's intercooler, the fact that the charge rows are too close, getting ambient air through it is going to be it's downfall.

Also, stop considering us just a drag racing company. That couldn't be further from the truth since we started dealing with the EVO's. We currently "sponsor" 4 guys in California that only do road racing. Look at Robert and Dieter's success with our FMIC on their road race cars. Probably a hundred others too.

We designed the Deluxe FMIC, which is our most popular, to not only shorten the intercooler plumbing, cool the air, have very low pressure drop but to ALSO increase the cooling available to the radiator. The inclease in flow to the radiator is greatly improved over stock, this was done with road racing/autocrossing in mind.

I also completely disagree with anyone that said testing an intercooler on the dyno isn't effective. By simply placing heat and pressure sensors in the system you can get all the data on pressure drop and cooling effeciency. The dyno will then tell you the power differences. By testing with any fan on the car, as long as it is the same fan for each test you are going to get consistent results/effects with each intercooler and test.

Thanks for the kind words on our intercoolers, we do our best.

Something else, we can use ANY core on the market. I am not producing the cores and have switched core manufacturers over the years to increase the performance of our intercoolers. Unlike a company that actually "makes" their own actual core I am not biased to what core I use, I use what works best. Keep that in mind. What we are using now has proven itself to be the best I have tested.

Rollaway, if you still have the old BR intercooler please return it to me, I will repair it and relocate the mounts so they fit perfectly, for no charge. My guess is it is one of the early units that I was not involved in making the fixture for and that is why the mounts were off. I will be glad to fix it, you can then atleast sell it.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

this is what i am saying. the there are too many rows , when u do this it impeds the flow by making less room for the air to flow.

[QUOTE=davidbuschur]I won't continue to argue either. I'd like those of you that didn't read Mike's from Forged Motorsports post to read it.

That is my largest concern with the Nisei's intercooler, the fact that the charge rows are too close, getting ambient air through it is going to be it's downfall.

 

ANy opinions of the Turbo XS FMIC???????

 

I couldn't agree with you more!!!! A drag race intercooler should be designed totally different from a road race core.

 

this is y we have air to water intercoolers.

 

Does 27,000 cfm translate into 80mph wind speeds or match the speed of which the vehicle on the dyno would be traveling? If so, my answer is yes, if not, my answer is no.

I agree! Every couple of months the question of the Nisei being too "dense" comes up.

I think there are 2 types of dense people keep referring to:

1. Fin Density - FPI ( fins per inch), the fin "blade" count.

2. The other dense seems to be: How close the cooling tubes are stacked together.

Now what I've read about the BR's core is that is has a higher FPI count. I believe it was listed as 18 FPI vs Nisei's 13 FPI.

About the stacking of the tubes. I believe Nisei has a more dense stack.

Here is a link I think will help those concerned with the Nisei. Please check out this link so we don't go through this argument every time.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...4&postcount=21

 

Fawk you don't even need an IC for a drag race, Just hit up some Butane or some other sub freezing gas. Air to water would be nice too for a Drag, just drop in some Dry ice and off you go

A road race core would need to be able to have proper air flow but not block the radiator or upgrade to an aftermarkter radiator, ample volume to handle the boost and be efficient enough to cool, I mean I think all these IC's a great and we are just splitting hairs.

The only BAD FMIC I have heard of is the Greddy, but then again it is only hearsay.....

 

Thanks again david , because I totally see where you are coming from , Im no dragracer by Any means , I have been in to roadracing my whole life and i felt that your FMIC and the design of it , is what I need .

Keep up the good work , OH... are the lower Intercooler pipes in yet .

 

David,

First, I'd like to state a intercooler produces hp by increasing the "efficiency" of the air traveling through the FMIC. There are 2 keys of increasing the "efficiency".

As air flows through the core, the efficiency is increased by:

1. Reducing the "pressure drop" or "back pressure" (Once FMIC has reached full pressurization.)

2. Reducing the "air temperatures"

Now, "HOW" an "Air to Air" intercooler can be configured to increase it's "efficiency" (designed to reduce temps & decrease the back pressure) is a different story. There are many ways it can be done.

A couple of quick examples would be:

1. Reducing "pressure drop" - to increase the core size which will give you more cooling tubes for better flow.

2. Reducing "air temps" - increasing the surface area so more air is captured to cool the core.


This is where I do disagree about testing the "efficiency" of an intercooler on the dyno. Just by adding the sensors to the core you will be able to collect data BUT, the data collected will be corrupt/compromised since most fans are not capable of creating the actual head winds a car would normally see on the track/road.

Because Air to Air intercoolers only have 1 source for cooling, (ambient air) mph plays a HUGE roll in determining it's "efficiency." Especially, since most fans can not cover the entire "surface area" of the cores and simulate actual wind speeds. Track / road tests have more accuracy since the vehicle would be traveling at actual speeds with actual wind speeds and have less deviation than a dyno would.

Dyno testing a intercooler would be more effective in determining it's resistance to "heat soak".

For those interested in learning more about some of the basic's involved with intercoolers check out this link:

http://www.niseiengineering.com/imag...erTutorial.swf

 

u do realize that by comparing intercoolers on a dyno that the conditions are the same for both intercoolers. u can get basic hp numbers from each intercooler. now they will not be at their most " efficient" but it doesnt matter, the car will breath better with one or the other and it will show up in hp numbers. the faster u go the more efficient the air to air intercooler gets, there for when u dyno a turbocharged car u are not getting the most efficiency out of your intercooler simply because your car is not taveling at such high speeds.

 

Deadbeatrec,

If the conditions are inadequate for testing "efficiency" then why test? Measuring the efficiency of an intercooler and measuring the hp a intercooler produces, are completely different, and require 2 different test conditions.

I will simply put it to you this way. If one is testing for "basic hp numbers", then why is there so much hype about Dynojet vs Mustang vs Dynopak vs all the others hp #'s/ratings?

I thought this thread was called the "best front mount intercooler?." If you really want to know which is best, shouldn't you try testing with the most accuracy in mind? or real condition testing?

P.S. Why is it that most good tuners "baseline" tune on the dyno and then "fine tune" on the track/road? Isn't it because the numbers change as soon as you drive under a "real condition"?

 

First, Str8Ryda are you trying to educate Buschur on proper way to test products? Please tell us your backgroud in this field. What experience do you have?

Second, I haven't tested anything myself but I will give my personal opinion based on logic. If you test different products under the SAME airflow and the product under the same conditions and nothing has changed to compromise the data, why wouldn't you consider the data accurate? Nothing is present to compromise the data, right? Only a lack of proper airflow in your opinion. You say the fan plays a big role in the equation, but if all test were done on the same vehicle, the same psi, room temp, air flow(fan), and various sensors monitoring pressure drop and temperature in the piping of the intercooler, the data shouldn't be compromised or considered innaccurate.

You mention that "real driving" conditions would have more air pass over the intercoolers, but if the product shows to be efficient at those levels of air flow(fan) than why wouldn't they be more efficient at the actual "real life" airflow conditions? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't necessarily think you would see a dramatic JUMP from the results from one to the other if the airflow was slightly increased to mimic real life air flow conditions from a high flow fan. A wind tunnel would only help with showing real life conditions over the whole vehicle where as the high flow fan used with most dyno's does a sufficient job of duplicating the airflow over the intercooler.

If one intercooler showed a major increase was present with more airflow over the original tested dyno fan airflow. The initial test should show it yielded better results from the beginning. You shouldn't see a major jump from that little of an airflow increase, if you do something else has changed in the equation.

 

here's some logic for you then. if you test a gt40 at 15 psi and you test a stock evo turbo at 15 psi, same pressure same conditions same ambient air which one is going to be "better". i bet you'd pick the stock evo turbo right? but what about when you're running at 30psi... oh ****... does that CHANGE THINGS?

air flow matters... especially to an intercooler, the methodology used by putting a car on a dyno is actually detrimental to the bar and plate designs that so many tout as being the best. more heat sink means more heat sink... that means it's a door that swings both ways... if you don't have sufficient air flow to evacuate that heat... all you're doing is storing it so that it can go right back into the system.

just like turbos intercoolers have different efficiency ranges and that includes how well they cool at which speeds. you wouldn't run around at 25 miles per hour and at 7000 rpms all day and hope yer intercooler would do its work, so why would you expect the test results to be accurate?

to cite you an example where your testing conditions would suck ***. a tube fin core is light and won't act as a heat sink as much as a bar plate core. under mild air flow the tube fin would be fin opperating within its efficiency range... but the bar plate would be doing the same... NO benefit of having a bar plate core. what you don't see... is that at increased internal flow the tube fin can't sink the heat so that it can be evacuated cuz it'll see it's sink to transfer threshold sooner than the barplate core. THIS is without even taking into consideration fin design etc. so yes... real life numbers are imparative... just like road tuning is better than dyno tuning (yes... that's the truth for all you dyno queeners out there, what's a dyno? something that tries to act like the road).

also... a wind tunnel is the PERFECT scenario, repeatable air flow etc. the fan does ****.... NOTHING compared to real mph air. why? cuz whe you ahve REAL mph air... the aerodynamics of your car come into play... when you have a splitter it creates a LARGE high pressure zone in the mouth of your bumper which directs air flow THROUGH your coolers, also in a wind tunnel and in real life the areas on your hood become low pressure zones where air is evacuated through the hood vents so that there is a sucking action through the engine bay which increases air flow. NONE OF THIS CAN BE DUBLICATED BY AN INDUSTRIAL FAN

and you know... this is all the fault of the stupid uninformed and retarded consumer. just like how all the coil overs in america suck... cuz everyone wants a soft ride that still lets them slam their car with 15 degrees of camber ONLY in the back. the testing that nisei does, their methodology is clean, accurate and above all it's ****IN EASY. ti's the best way to test... just put some damn temp sensors in and run the car on the road, log and display for the world to see. that's IT!! why do you need dyno numbers? SHUT THE **** UP. i'm so tired of people allowing the mindless masses and mindless numbers control what they purchase therefore perpetuating the stupidity.

if you want cfm nubmers theres a good way to test that... flow bench... if you want to see drag times... then do that... if you want to see dyno numbers for some stupid reason... then by all means do that even tho it's meaningless... but for temperature... and intercooler efficiency evaluation... DO NOT put it on a stupid dyno. if you wanna see if the damn thing really works... go to willow springs in the heat of summer and wait for the track temps to get to 140, have the proper sensors installed int eh right places, have your laptop log and then run around the track for 10 laps at 9/10ths. read the logs and find out that the nisei is the best.