First Bbar, thanks for posting up your info. Good stuff!

Just, wondering if you talking about the pressure drop across the core internally or externally.

If it's the external pressure drop which causes this reaction. Then I believe the MPH being the variable would tend to increase pressure drop on the exterior of the core.

Remeber these guys were in 5th gear at about 5600 RPM.

P.S. water vapors are usually in the air, especially when you are able to read the humidity.

 

I was talking about the pressure drop internally. The pressure drop of the ambient air flow over the cooler would not cause the ambient temp to drop below static ambient temp (at least I highly doubt it) as even though there is a pressure drop the ambient air has been heated by the heat transfer of the charge air so the air temp at the back of the cooler would be well above the ambient temp, but hopefully still below the temp of the charge air at that point along the cooler otherwise there will be zero heat transfer at the back of the cooler.

Mike

 

If you are driving in rain, or (remote possibility) heavy fog this is true. That is the entire purpose of the intercooler sprayer on the 03's. The water in the intercooler sprayer is at ambient temp, but the evaporitive cooling from the phase change from liquid to vapor does cool the intercooler on the 03 cars better than a simple air to air system without a water sprayer.

The pressure drop going from the cooling tubes into the outlet end tank is negligable even on a restrictive core, so that would not be the explanation for the lower than ambient temps.

Too sum up, is is possible? Yes, on a day where it is raining. If that was the case, then both intercoolers in any test like this need to be done with the same weather conditions to avoid one getting added cooling from rain and the other not recieving this benefit.

Keith

 

I got the intercooler today. I will not comment further, explain myself or argue about any of this. Don't waste your rude comments on me, don't waste my time even having to read any.

The facts are the facts. That's all there is.

I was on the dyno today dyno'ing the car. I had just unstrapped it when I saw the Newest addition of their intercooler had come in. (They revised the single mount on it, I guess it wasn't in the right spot on some in the past, this is what I was told by the customer that sent it here.)

As soon as I got it I started to try and pick it apart. Bottom line it is a nice intercooler. I don't like the inlet tube as it sticks straight out and it hits the fascia more than it needs to. I also don't like that the OD of the inlet/outlet are 2.5" but the ID is only 2.2 inches as the material is very thick. I also don't like that the Nisei only has one single mounting tab on the top. Don't get me wrong, this is a nice intercooler. I am just picking since they want to pick at everyone else's. The intercooler weighs in at 26.3 pounds while ours weighs in at 27.5 pounds.

I reloaded the car on the dyno and bolted the intercooler on. The weather had changed quite a bit as it got much colder and started to rain. Once the intercooler was bolted to the front of the car I turned both fans on and let them run for a long time to get the intercooler as cold as it could get, ambient air temp. Then I did dyno runs in 3rd gear only.

After I pulled the car I left the car strapped to the dyno and took the Nisei off the car, bolted on our RACE FMIC (which is what they should have tested against in the first place since they are most similar in size) and then pulled it the same way in 3rd gear.

Bottom line is the two intercoolers are close. I took the Nisei and ours and compared them. The runs were 19 minutes apart as that's how long it took me to swap intercoolers.

There was absolutely NOTHING changed other than the FMIC's. NOTHING.

Here is the data, do what you want with it. I'm not hear to argue anymore. There is NO way to perform a more fair test than this.

Buschur Racing Race FMIC Nisei FMIC

Max HP 374 Max HP 369
Max TQ 372 Max TQ 371
Max Boost 31.07 psi Max Boost 30.36 psi

Air temps BR Race FMIC:
On the dyno at 2926 rpm with the BR Race FMIC, air temp was 64.40 degrees.
At 7,000 rpm the air temp was 66.20 degrees.

Air temps Nisei FMIC:
On the dyno at 3,000 rpm with the Nisei FMIC, air temp was at 64.40 degrees and ended at 68.00 degrees.

As you can see both intercoolers were started after being cooled as low as they could go. The starting temps were identical to the tenth of a degree. Both pulls were started at 3,000 rpm and run to 7,000 rpm.

My above observations about inlet/outlets and brackets are my opinion, take them as that. The above dyno testing, psi and air temps were as even as I could get them. EVERYTHING WAS DONE 100% LEGIT AND BACK TO BACK.

I did not test our Deluxe or Standard as I didn't have intercoolers built here to put on today. I am going out of town tomorrow and wanted to get this intercooler returned to the owner as I told him I would. Being questioned on this topic as much as I have has pissed me off. I nearly didn't do the testing at all.

I stand by my original post and say that their data with the inlet air temps DROPPING is bogus. I believe I proved it here.

All in all, they have a nice intercooler and there isn't a lot of difference in the two. I do feel we came out slightly on top and I feel a test between our race FMIC and their intercooler is the only one that is "fair" as the two designs are similar in size and design.

I know our race FMIC makes more power than our standard and deluxe cores so since we have this data I can swap one on when I get them for those of you curious.

Also, looking at the numbers my car is making you can see this is a good test at some good HP numbers for comparison. This is around 456 whp on a Dynojet for those of you wanting something to compare it to.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Thanks for the results!

Now, me personally, I have one of your oldest FMIC's for the EVO.... and I was wondering what the advanteages of the "new style" delux kit would be over my "old school" delux FMIC. At this point I would not bother to buy the newer delux kit, but if it is a significant difference I may decide to jump up to the Race setup (skip over the new core style delux).

Thanks,

Keith

 

Keith,

The only advantage to our new style deluxe kit is ease of installment. Your car would benefit from the Race FMIC kit, you'r making a lot of power.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Dave could you post up the dyno graphs/run files?

 

Mike,

Good point. But the sensor measuring the ambient was not put in front of the car (by in front, I mean not completely exposed to 100+ winds…like the front of the core). Maybe Rob would be able to tell us where the ambient temp sensor was placed. It was behind something that blocked most of the wind though. In any case, the ambient sensor didn’t see the same wind speeds (and probably moisture for that matter) as the fins in the intercooler.


I’m not really sure about this – it was just a possibility that I thought of. You may be correct though. But to be sure, we would either need a pressure sensor in the tubes, or we would need the volume of both end tanks as well as the volume of the tubes, plus all the temp and pressure data already being collected.

 

Hey Keith,

If the outside air parcels are saturated (when it’s raining, for example), then the evaporative cooling will not take place. The reason for this is because if the ambient air parcels already have the maximum water content they can hold (that is, they are saturated), then the water on the fins cannot evaporate because there is no place for them to go (because they would only evaporate to the ambient air). The fins would actually be cooled faster and to a lower temperature if the ambient air parcels were dry. But if the ambient air is dry, and you’re not using an IC sprayer, then the fins would never reach a below ambient temperature. So in order for the below ambient temperature to be reached, the relative humidity of the ambient air must be greater than or equal to 1% but less than or equal to 99% (so between 1-99).



Also, I’m not sure how big of a pressure drop there is going from the tubes to the outlet end tank. You may be correct in saying that it is too small to make a difference. This would be a little tricky to measure because we would need the volume of the tubes (as well as the volume of both end tanks) to figure this out without putting a pressure sensor in the tubes (and I’m not even sure how we could do this without affecting the heat exchanging process).

 

2 things. i think dave should have 1 evo for racing and another bone stock 1 for testing. seening is how you always do it. lol. anyway i no this is off topic but im wondering was this on stock turbo or one of your upgraded turbos. seems like that car is making nice power. is it posible you could pm me a mods list. p.s. great test. im shore both fmic are great. yours being the best. nice work. maby i should get this fmic. i got a hyperflow fmic. got a good deal on it and im happy with it. but im shore with my future setup it may not do the job. are your fmic's on your website and priced out as well? i havent looked.

 

I'm running a FMIC that can be purchased on ebaymotors for about $130. Another board poster here (I think bishiboy) is running the same unit and the thing is phenomenal. I'm not going to get into the specs because I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on that, but I have noticed a considerable increase in spooling and better cooling efficiency over the stock intercooler.

 

David,

Two things. First off, thank you for the test. It seems like your race core is a lot better than your other cores. Second, if you used the EMS for logging, can you by any chance post the logs you did?

 

Pretty sure it was done on his rs w/ the 20g 9 on it. On a side note David did you measure the pressure drop between the cores?

 

Got an email notification for this thread. I have a lot to say about this but it's in the middle of the buisiness day here and i've got the phone going crazy and one employee out sick. Look for my reply tonight.

 

The turbo was a 20g-9, it was run on race gas, obviously

My EVOSTORE, I am sure you have things to say. I was fair in the testing and as far as I know you haven't tested our race FMIC, so not sure what you could say.

So the rest of you know that I'm not ignoring anyone, I'm not posting AEM logs as I can't edit AFR's and timing out of them and how I have the car tuned isn't everyone's business.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com