David,

Wouldn't the fact that peak boost was almost 1 psi higher on your Race FMIC compared to the the Nisei affect horsepower? Just askinig a question. Don't skewer me since I have a Nisei

 

Yes, absolutely could mean more power from our core than the Nisei from the 1 extra psi. That extra boost is from less pressure drop through our core though as they noted in their testing too. That extra 1 psi should also make for higher air temps too but it didn't.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

You realize that you just said water will not boil if it is raining because there is no where for the water to evaporate too?

Problem is, you are almost correct. When the air inside the FMIC reaches ambient temp no further evaporation will take place due to the water saturation of the ambient air.

I was wrong about the rain or fog explanation. Rain or fog would alow an intercooler to reach ambient temp faster, but not to reach lower than ambient temps.

On a dry day with a water sprayer you can reach lower than ambient temps since evaporation is a function of air speed, temperature, and relative humidity. this just points toward the original test being flawed, weather it was intentianal or not.

Keith

 

Wow, interesting developments. There was a lot of comments about testing size for size but Buschur and Nisei just don't have the same size cores. The BR Race FMIC is larger than the Nisei and the Nisei is larger than the Buschur Deluxe. Go figure. Actually, the Nisei did very well going up against a larger intercooler. They never said their FMIC was better than the BR RACE FMIC, they said they outperformed the Deluxe. The BR Race and Nisei may be more similar in size, however I'd still like to see the Nisei tested against the Deluxe core.

As a consumer, I look at it as how much bang for the buck I'm getting. The Nisei is $695 and the Buschur Race I believe is $850. I've also heard the BR Race requires a LICP for $240 which brings the total cost up to $1,090. For me, I wouldn't spend the extra $$ to make 5hp more and not be able to retain the bumper beam support. Just my .02 on that.

David, thanks for testing the two cores. Your core is a monster. I wonder how would your Race FMIC do on a stock turbo? I do believe the Nisei testing against the Deluxe was fair but it's good to see both vendors post their testing results. Thanks and keep up the good work Buschur and Nisei!

 

Do you, or someone at your shop know how to take screen shots on a computer? You can display just the boost and temp information on your graph and then hit the "priint screen" button on your keyboard. Then open up Microsoft paint and click in the center of the screen. Then hit "Control V" and the image from the screen where you hit "print screen" will apear in the paint window. Now crop the image to make it small enough to be posted on Evolutionm. Then hit "save as" and save the resulting image as a .jpg Now you can post it up here without any actual tunning details being available.

Keith

 

From what I understand you don't remove the bumper beam with the BR race FMIC. Please correct me if I am wrong Dave Buschur.

Keith

 

they shipped my deluxe fmic yesterday if i had known, I would have let them keep it one more day for the test. Now I just have to figure out where to put the vacuum line that goes to the stock licp that attaches to the turbo (the black one) now that I have the deluxe installed. It is a very nice piece of craftmanship! well packaged for shipping too.

 

i guess it just needs to be trimmed or removed depending on what you like

{The stock crash bar will need to be trimmed or removed for the installation of this unit. NO trimming of the front bumper is needed for the installation.}
https://secure.buschurracing.com/cat...roducts_id=672

 

EVOslayer,

Comments such as yours are why I don't care to be part of any testing. The Nisei intercooler is MUCH larger than our standard and deluxe cores, not a good comparison. The Nisei and our race FMIC are VERY similar in size, very. Our intercooler is 4" thick, there's is 3.5" thick. Ours is 24" long, there's is 25" long. Theirs is also slightly taller, can't remember their dimensions. They are very close in size as I said, closer than any of the other intercoolers in the above topic are to one another. You do not have to cut the bumper support with our intercoolers. You also do NOT have to buy any type of intercooler plumbing what-so-ever. Our intercoolers ALL work with the stock plumbing if you choose to run it that way.

As a side note our lower i/c pipe fit really well with the Nisei FMIC. Those of you needing plumbing kits for the Nisei, ours work, upper and lower.

I also realize the difference in cost between our race FMIC and theirs. $850 compared to $695. As I said, they have a nice intercooler and the power/temps/pressure were all pretty close together with ours having a slight margin over it. Is that margin worth $155? I don't know. Can we build our race FMIC cheaper........I don't know that either. They use a cast end tank which cuts costs and cuts welding time substantially. I have considered cast tanks for ours just for those two reasons. We fab our own tanks and weld them all in house. I guess with the finding of their intercooler working pretty good maybe I will have to find a way to get more cost competitive, it's tough as our core alone is quite a bit of money, that is the major cost in the building of a quality intercooler. I would not however change our core over to what they are using after todays testing, even if it was cheaper.

Keith,

I'm going to New Jersey tomorrow to meet with Bell Mitsubishi and tuning a car at another Mitsubishi dealer in Jersey. I'll be back in Ohio late Friday. I can look at doing a screen shot when I get back, if I get in a better frame of mind. I guess I'll have to wait and see what the EVOStore has to say. I'm done argueing as this test is plain fact and since I tested two intercoolers that are close in size and they haven't there shouldn't be much left to argue about.

DizzyTT,

For your boost source just use a "T" in the BOV line for your new boost source.

That's all.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

hmmm, I clicked the link that is posted to our site about the front bumper support. I honestly didn't realize it had to be cut. I'm not running one and I think just about everyone that comes to our shop has us take them off. I'd assume since we posted it had to be cut then that would be correct, it must need cut. Sorry.

BTW, if that is the case I'd have to guess Nisei does too? There intercooler is spaced further out from the front of the car than ours is, it's a 1/2" less thick but it is pushed out a good 1/2" farther to the front than ours is, I'd guess from looking at it on the car today anyway.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Thanks David for taking the time to test it. I was planning on getting the BR race FMIC after having great results with the BR race FMIC on my GSX. It was by far the best quality IC that I had seen for a DSM. This is icing on the cake

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourdoor

You realize that you just said water will not boil if it is raining because there is no where for the water to evaporate too?

Keith, I think you’re a little confused. I didn’t say, nor did I imply, that water will not boil if the ambient air parcels are saturated. I said that water will not evaporate if the ambient air parcels are saturated. It is a mistake to use the two interchangeably.

There are some non-linear models that explain evaporation relative to relative humidity, but for our purposes this simplified equation should do.

E = 1 – RH

(If you’re interested I can also provide you with the derivation to get this equation, but I don’t want to bore you, nor anyone else reading this!) Anyway, E is the rate of evaporation and RH is relative humidity (in a decimal value...so 70% is .7) So if we have 100% relative humidity, then the equation will look like this:

E = 1 – 1
E = 0

So the rate of evaporation at 100% relative humidity will be zero. Consider as an example a pot of water. If you take a pot of water and put it outside when the ambient air parcels are saturated, then as long water in the pot doesn’t reach its boiling point, the water will not evaporate because the relative humidity is 100%. So since the relative humidity is 100%, there is no energy available to do the work of evaporation. However, if you could somehow heat up the water in the pot (putting a fire under the pot, for example) and heat it above 100C, then it will boil. The steam will not be absorbed by the ambient air parcels because the air parcels are already saturated. What happens is that the steam coming from the boiling pot of water just moves into the ambient air. This will result in a higher local pressure (because there’s more stuff in it now). The water vapor (steam) will eventually cool and since the relative humidity is 100%, it will fall back down (just like rain).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourdoor

Problem is, you are almost correct. When the air inside the FMIC reaches ambient temp no further evaporation will take place due to the water saturation of the ambient air.

Look up what a sling psychrometer is, or you can look at my first post on the air-to-air intercooler cooling to sub-ambient temperatures. Water vapor in the air, along with wind, will allow this to happen. And moreover, how does the ambient air become saturated in your above description? The Nisei tests were never performed when the ambient air was saturated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourdoor

On a dry day with a water sprayer you can reach lower than ambient temps since evaporation is a function of air speed, temperature, and relative humidity. this just points toward the original test being flawed, weather it was intentianal or not.

I’m confused. Can you explain this a little bit more? The air doesn’t need to be dry to get cooler than ambient temps (if you have a sprayer it would defiantly help…but it’s not necessary). The air just needs to have some moisture in it (this is so the water molecules will stick to the fins for a second), and the air cannot be saturated (this is so the water on the fins can evaporate to someplace).

 

dude.... seriously... i've heard you say this like many times... have you considered the fact that ambient air temp was taken from a non wind chilled area of the car? have you considered that wind chill is a factor in intercooling.... it IS indeed possible to have lower than ambient... why? firstly the ambient temperature could be taken from a non wind chilled area and secondly when you have a pressure differential over a surface the accelerating air becomes less dense hence dropping the temperature of the air, this is what happens in an intercooler between the transfer tubes. how much does it drop it by? by the average amount of decompression where the temperture of vacuum is approximately 2-3 kelvin.

 

And he comes out swingin.... Regarding the LICP for the BR RACE FMIC, Nick at Buschur Racing told me that the LICP is required for this core. I'll take your word for it that it's not required but I thought you should know that I got that information from your company.

I'd also like to clarify for anyone interested in the Nisei FMIC that the bumper beam does not require any modification. I spoke to Rob at MyEvoStore and he confirmed this.

 

EVOslayer,

I wasn't swinging, I can if you like, but was hoping to be done with that. You said comparing a much larger intercooler to a smaller one was a fair test, in fact it is not a fair test. A test maybe but lets compare things more closely matched up size wise. That was my point.

Nick is mistaken about the intercooler plumbing. Nick hasn't done any intalls on an EVO and probably should have asked someone before saying the answer. He's got a killer 2G DSM with our FMIC on it though.

As I said, ALL of our intercoolers can use the stock lower and stock upper intercooler plumbing.

I will have to dig up a bumper beam and see if it clears our race FMIC. Looking at the nisei on the car and ours they appear to sit very close to the same distance from the core support. The nisei did appear to sit lower by a little bit.



David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com