View Poll Results: Which do you like?
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1013. You may not vote on this poll
Poll: FMIC - Front Mount Intercooler
Wow, your in love with the Nis core 
Buschurs intercooler is made by Garrett. I dont know who makes the Nis core (Maybe themselves?). At any rate... Garrett makes extremely good cores so you arent only bashing Dave but also Garrett. There is also alot more to an IC aside from the temp gain/loss. The end tank design and flow rate, pressure drop, efficienciency, etc...
Daves IC is a great IC and powers plenty of 10 second cars and at least one 9 second car. I havent seen the proven times from the Nis cores yet. So why bash his?
And to ask Dave to post the whole log file is just getting stupid, he doesnt want to show his timing and AFRs. I dont blame the guy. Yes we have to trust his word, but his name is riding on his word.... if he sold a crap IC and found out it was crap... he would change it. Why just lie and pretend it is great? Doesnt make much sense, business wise or ethically.
I dont like the "Deluxe" IC but that is mainly because the core is too small and one of the end tanks has a 90* entrance. I have been trying to figure out what IC to get next and there is a decent chance it will be his Race IC. I trust a Garrett core more than the Nis core personally.
Buschurs intercooler is made by Garrett. I dont know who makes the Nis core (Maybe themselves?). At any rate... Garrett makes extremely good cores so you arent only bashing Dave but also Garrett. There is also alot more to an IC aside from the temp gain/loss. The end tank design and flow rate, pressure drop, efficienciency, etc...
Daves IC is a great IC and powers plenty of 10 second cars and at least one 9 second car. I havent seen the proven times from the Nis cores yet. So why bash his?
And to ask Dave to post the whole log file is just getting stupid, he doesnt want to show his timing and AFRs. I dont blame the guy. Yes we have to trust his word, but his name is riding on his word.... if he sold a crap IC and found out it was crap... he would change it. Why just lie and pretend it is great? Doesnt make much sense, business wise or ethically.
I dont like the "Deluxe" IC but that is mainly because the core is too small and one of the end tanks has a 90* entrance. I have been trying to figure out what IC to get next and there is a decent chance it will be his Race IC. I trust a Garrett core more than the Nis core personally.
I'm sure they're both great IC's, but the Race wasn't around when Nisei did their testing. I would still like to see a comparable log of a Nisei run (one without "controversial exit temps), but I don't think that's going to happen.
Trusting a Garrett core more than a Nisei core is silly since you don't know what the Nisei core is. It could be off the shelf, it could be proprietary. Who knows. Besides, you shouldn't "trust" anything. You should study the core and endtank design of both and decide which one you think is best. THe test results (IMO) were a wash.
Trusting a Garrett core more than a Nisei core is silly since you don't know what the Nisei core is. It could be off the shelf, it could be proprietary. Who knows. Besides, you shouldn't "trust" anything. You should study the core and endtank design of both and decide which one you think is best. THe test results (IMO) were a wash.
By trust I mean I trust the methods in which they provide the results. If they claim thier core and endtank design with the core = x pressure drop, x efficiency, etc, etc... I trust them and would buy it. Ive never heard of the Nisei cores but it seems they are great as well. Like I said before, I will do my research and decide who and what I will go with but I dont need to read a bunch of people ragging on others products without any reason. From what I have read it seems both ICs are extremely comparable.... so that is a good thing if you ask me.
I dont see why someone wouldnt show thier test results with thier Nisei core. Buschur shows his... so whats not going to be a comparable log? Two logs with close to the same ambient temp is fine. Most boost numbers will be close. Speed will be close.... I dont think anyone is going to try to rig it so thier seems much better... considering there are plenty of people that probably own them, lying would be futile.
Im not trying to defend or bash either... Im just saying there doesnt seem to be a reason for it all... they are both good ICs.
I dont see why someone wouldnt show thier test results with thier Nisei core. Buschur shows his... so whats not going to be a comparable log? Two logs with close to the same ambient temp is fine. Most boost numbers will be close. Speed will be close.... I dont think anyone is going to try to rig it so thier seems much better... considering there are plenty of people that probably own them, lying would be futile.
Im not trying to defend or bash either... Im just saying there doesnt seem to be a reason for it all... they are both good ICs.
Evolved Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
From: Bangkok
I think the only way to settle this is to get one ic of each make and set up a test rig consisting of:
-One fan blowing through a heater INTO the i/c
-One fan blowing through a heater AT the i/c in the same direction as the flow on to the front of the car
-Pressure drop measurement across the i/c, between the circular entrance and the exit and not just the tanks
-Temp measurement at the same entrance and exit
Now to make sure everyone's happy, we should have at least two set ups so 2 i/c's can be tested at the same time in the same room. Once one test is done then we swap them over and do it again so their positions in the room or the difference between the two setups is accounted for.
The data you're going to get can be plotted on several graphs (surfaces) but since there are 4 parameters it's going to be tricky to compare but what the heck. [I'm not too familiar with heat exchanger tests but I'm pretty sure there's an easier way, you can probably get some sort of non-dimensional characteristic number or something.]
Believe it or not, I am willing to do the test and post up the results. BUT I only have enough bits for one setup and I don't have an i/c rather than what's on my car right now. Also, if we're serious about this give me some parameters so I can recheck the things I have like heaters, fans etc. And finally, and this is the bit that sucks, I'm in Thailand so it's gonna be difficult for anyone to send me an i/c to do the tests. I will need about 3 weeks to get everything set up though.
Now if I do come round to getting an i/c (i'm fairly happy with the stock) I WILL do the test and post the result. But it will be an ARC and I wouldn't know what I'd do if there turns out to be no difference...
-One fan blowing through a heater INTO the i/c
-One fan blowing through a heater AT the i/c in the same direction as the flow on to the front of the car
-Pressure drop measurement across the i/c, between the circular entrance and the exit and not just the tanks
-Temp measurement at the same entrance and exit
Now to make sure everyone's happy, we should have at least two set ups so 2 i/c's can be tested at the same time in the same room. Once one test is done then we swap them over and do it again so their positions in the room or the difference between the two setups is accounted for.
The data you're going to get can be plotted on several graphs (surfaces) but since there are 4 parameters it's going to be tricky to compare but what the heck. [I'm not too familiar with heat exchanger tests but I'm pretty sure there's an easier way, you can probably get some sort of non-dimensional characteristic number or something.]
Believe it or not, I am willing to do the test and post up the results. BUT I only have enough bits for one setup and I don't have an i/c rather than what's on my car right now. Also, if we're serious about this give me some parameters so I can recheck the things I have like heaters, fans etc. And finally, and this is the bit that sucks, I'm in Thailand so it's gonna be difficult for anyone to send me an i/c to do the tests. I will need about 3 weeks to get everything set up though.
Now if I do come round to getting an i/c (i'm fairly happy with the stock) I WILL do the test and post the result. But it will be an ARC and I wouldn't know what I'd do if there turns out to be no difference...
Originally Posted by x838nwy
The datalog is very much appreciated. However, might it be asking too much to have a log from a stock i/c with a similar setup? I wouldn't want to trouble you for a new log, but if you've done something like that in the past, I would really like to see it.
Even if you don't post, I have much respect for vendors who do more than just imagine how much their product should gain. [Not actually talking about anyone in particular, before people start saying nasty things].
Even if you don't post, I have much respect for vendors who do more than just imagine how much their product should gain. [Not actually talking about anyone in particular, before people start saying nasty things].
I like my approach better Buy whats known to work. This seems like one hell of an overkill to decide which is better when its almost definately going to damn near the same anyways. There is yet even more than just which one cools better, or which has better pressure drop if you really want to get into it. We had better test the welds on each one to around 55psi. Perhaps one of the ICs wont handle it and it will blow apart. We should also test the airflow going past each one to see the aerodynamic changes of the car so we will need a wind tunnel. We will also need a very large range of heaters because while one IC may cool more efficiently it also may heat soak much quicker negating its effectiveness. On top of that we will need to find a way to shove in 75 lbs/min of air just to ensure its flow is capable of handling a large turbo. We should also set up a rig to throw stones at each one simulating rocks/debris flying at it... maybe one of the designs uses weaker fins that may not last as long.
Now.... so lets set all that up and see whos IC is truly greater
I think my idea is better... use whats known to work. If you want to try out new products than go for it and let everyone else know. Perhaps they will switch and prove the results to be better. Its not like either one is going to not work. I would assume the difference would be so minute almost no one could honestly tell the difference anyways. Thats my view point at least.
Buy whats known to work. This seems like one hell of an overkill to decide which is better when its almost definately going to damn near the same anyways. There is yet even more than just which one cools better, or which has better pressure drop if you really want to get into it. We had better test the welds on each one to around 55psi. Perhaps one of the ICs wont handle it and it will blow apart. We should also test the airflow going past each one to see the aerodynamic changes of the car so we will need a wind tunnel. We will also need a very large range of heaters because while one IC may cool more efficiently it also may heat soak much quicker negating its effectiveness. On top of that we will need to find a way to shove in 75 lbs/min of air just to ensure its flow is capable of handling a large turbo. We should also set up a rig to throw stones at each one simulating rocks/debris flying at it... maybe one of the designs uses weaker fins that may not last as long. Now.... so lets set all that up and see whos IC is truly greater
I think my idea is better... use whats known to work. If you want to try out new products than go for it and let everyone else know. Perhaps they will switch and prove the results to be better. Its not like either one is going to not work. I would assume the difference would be so minute almost no one could honestly tell the difference anyways. Thats my view point at least.
And I promise you, you will notice a large difference between the ICs. The stock IC can not handle the airflow from any larger turbos. DSMotorsports has already done this test... he gained a whole bunch of MPH in the quarter by simply swapping it. He also has logs of the temp differences.
Originally Posted by bbar
David,
I’m not sure I understand exactly what you mean. Which test of yours showed your core “stomping” the Nisei core? Was it the dyno test or the street pulls you posted up?
If it was the street pull you posted, then where is the pull with the Nisei core on the car so we can compare? Or were you talking about comparing my log of the Nisei core with your log of your core (which, by the way, was done more than 2000 miles away from where you did your log)? Nonetheless, whatever you were talking about, your core did not “stomp” the Nisei core.
If you were talking about comparing it to my street log (which I did on the opposite side of the country), then your RACE core was cooler than the Nisei core by either zero (0) degrees (that’s 5.4 – 5.4) or 3.6 degrees (that’s 5.4 – 1.8). It’s hard to tell what’s going on with your “log.” (You should just post the actual file already.) Anyway, I’ll just give you the benefit of the doubt and ASSUME that your temps were 3.6 degrees cooler at the top of fourth than the NISEI (which, more than likely, was not the case). Considering these two logs were taken on different days, with different temperatures, pressures, relative humidity, and more than 2000 miles apart from each other, is 3.6 degrees considered STOMPING?
On the other hand, if you were saying that your core “stomped” the Nisei core with your dyno test, then I also have something to say about that. Your core made a 5 HP gain along with a whopping 1 lb torque increase. I’ve seen bigger differences with back-to-back dyno pulls using the same car with the EXACT same setup. Oh yeah, I almost forgot that the car was boosting almost 1psi (according to secretive you who will not post the logs) less with the Nisei core. So again, is this STOMPING?
Also, continuing on with your “fairest test possible” on the dyno, in third gear with the air moving across the core at some static speed x, both difference between the baseline temps and the top of third temps were within 1.8 degrees of each other. Is this STOMPING?
Moreover, since you even acknowledge that there is a difference between dyno condition and real world conditions
You said it here:
you cannot say that since both cores exchanged heat at approximately the same rate given the dyno conditions, they will exchange heat at the same rate given real world conditions. Who knows, maybe your core would exchange heat way better than the Nisei core in real world conditions (though, I doubt it). My point is that this test was not the fairest possible test as you claimed. Maybe a good test would be something like this: assume that colder air and less pressure drop = more power. Then the dyno becomes irrelevant and you can now test in real world conditions. You then put a pressure sensor and a temp sensor in each end tank. Log the core, and then you can see pressure drop, inlet/outlet temps (or heat exchanging capability) as well as spool-up characteristics. That is a fair (as well as a REAL) test. This IS what Nisei did in the first place.
I’m not sure I understand exactly what you mean. Which test of yours showed your core “stomping” the Nisei core? Was it the dyno test or the street pulls you posted up?
If it was the street pull you posted, then where is the pull with the Nisei core on the car so we can compare? Or were you talking about comparing my log of the Nisei core with your log of your core (which, by the way, was done more than 2000 miles away from where you did your log)? Nonetheless, whatever you were talking about, your core did not “stomp” the Nisei core.
If you were talking about comparing it to my street log (which I did on the opposite side of the country), then your RACE core was cooler than the Nisei core by either zero (0) degrees (that’s 5.4 – 5.4) or 3.6 degrees (that’s 5.4 – 1.8). It’s hard to tell what’s going on with your “log.” (You should just post the actual file already.) Anyway, I’ll just give you the benefit of the doubt and ASSUME that your temps were 3.6 degrees cooler at the top of fourth than the NISEI (which, more than likely, was not the case). Considering these two logs were taken on different days, with different temperatures, pressures, relative humidity, and more than 2000 miles apart from each other, is 3.6 degrees considered STOMPING?
On the other hand, if you were saying that your core “stomped” the Nisei core with your dyno test, then I also have something to say about that. Your core made a 5 HP gain along with a whopping 1 lb torque increase. I’ve seen bigger differences with back-to-back dyno pulls using the same car with the EXACT same setup. Oh yeah, I almost forgot that the car was boosting almost 1psi (according to secretive you who will not post the logs) less with the Nisei core. So again, is this STOMPING?
Also, continuing on with your “fairest test possible” on the dyno, in third gear with the air moving across the core at some static speed x, both difference between the baseline temps and the top of third temps were within 1.8 degrees of each other. Is this STOMPING?
Moreover, since you even acknowledge that there is a difference between dyno condition and real world conditions
You said it here:
you cannot say that since both cores exchanged heat at approximately the same rate given the dyno conditions, they will exchange heat at the same rate given real world conditions. Who knows, maybe your core would exchange heat way better than the Nisei core in real world conditions (though, I doubt it). My point is that this test was not the fairest possible test as you claimed. Maybe a good test would be something like this: assume that colder air and less pressure drop = more power. Then the dyno becomes irrelevant and you can now test in real world conditions. You then put a pressure sensor and a temp sensor in each end tank. Log the core, and then you can see pressure drop, inlet/outlet temps (or heat exchanging capability) as well as spool-up characteristics. That is a fair (as well as a REAL) test. This IS what Nisei did in the first place.
Peakboost 110%...
The PeakBoost FMIC is the largest intercooler upgrade available for the EVO while still using the factory piping positions and allowing for the front bumper support to be kept completely intact!
includes all necessary 4ply silicone couplers and tbolt clamps.
The PeakBoost FMIC uses the highest density Garrett bar and plate core measuring 24" x 12" x 3.5". The core is rated to support ~800whp by Garrett's engineers. However, we have used this core to make over 900whp!!
and they can be picked up for $699... $799 Retail.
This is the same intercooler used in the Peakboost Evo8 turbo kit that pumped out these numbers.
[IMG]http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/cheapturbo_1878_13665464
[/IMG]
AF-Performance
The PeakBoost FMIC is the largest intercooler upgrade available for the EVO while still using the factory piping positions and allowing for the front bumper support to be kept completely intact!
includes all necessary 4ply silicone couplers and tbolt clamps.
The PeakBoost FMIC uses the highest density Garrett bar and plate core measuring 24" x 12" x 3.5". The core is rated to support ~800whp by Garrett's engineers. However, we have used this core to make over 900whp!!
and they can be picked up for $699... $799 Retail.
This is the same intercooler used in the Peakboost Evo8 turbo kit that pumped out these numbers.
[IMG]http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/cheapturbo_1878_13665464
[/IMG]
AF-Performance
Uh, looks awfully similar to ours.....had you not said it was someone else's.....
Anyway, you are not correct about the Peak Boost. Our intercooler and Nisei's are both larger than the dimensions ou have posted and both clear the front crash beam and also both can use the stock intercooler plumbing. Then of course we are both cheaper, slightly too.
bbar, just so you know I have read your response but have just chose to ignore you as you and "thumbs up" bbybruno obviously are looking at something different than all the information that has been posted in this thread. Maybe the two of you can get together and build an intercooler better than mine and Nisei's and become rich!!
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Anyway, you are not correct about the Peak Boost. Our intercooler and Nisei's are both larger than the dimensions ou have posted and both clear the front crash beam and also both can use the stock intercooler plumbing. Then of course we are both cheaper, slightly too.
bbar, just so you know I have read your response but have just chose to ignore you as you and "thumbs up" bbybruno obviously are looking at something different than all the information that has been posted in this thread. Maybe the two of you can get together and build an intercooler better than mine and Nisei's and become rich!!
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Alright, I have no self restraint.
Bbar,
I took the time to go back and look once again at Nisei's street testing that started this huge debate in the first place.
I am going to forget the fact that they somehow ended up with a -7 degrees F tempurature in 1st gear (that's -7 degrees below ambient air temp). What I am going to point out to you is that at the end of 4th gear they were +11.8 degrees F over there -7 degrees starting temps. If I am thinking correctly -7 up to +11.8 degrees would equal 18.8 degrees F increase in outlet air temps. Would you agree with this? Even if you don't agree, let's agree to agree on it raised 11.8 degrees F. Our intercooler on a 1st-4th gear pull only gained 2 degrees. We have already shown and Nisei admitted to having slightly more pressure drop even in their own testing. So we had lower air temps in the same type of test and our intercooler has less pressure drop. I'd call that a win.
If you choose not to see those facts and call it a win then I don't think you are worth talking to anymore as it will prove that you are only going to see things the way you want to see them.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Bbar,
I took the time to go back and look once again at Nisei's street testing that started this huge debate in the first place.
I am going to forget the fact that they somehow ended up with a -7 degrees F tempurature in 1st gear (that's -7 degrees below ambient air temp). What I am going to point out to you is that at the end of 4th gear they were +11.8 degrees F over there -7 degrees starting temps. If I am thinking correctly -7 up to +11.8 degrees would equal 18.8 degrees F increase in outlet air temps. Would you agree with this? Even if you don't agree, let's agree to agree on it raised 11.8 degrees F. Our intercooler on a 1st-4th gear pull only gained 2 degrees. We have already shown and Nisei admitted to having slightly more pressure drop even in their own testing. So we had lower air temps in the same type of test and our intercooler has less pressure drop. I'd call that a win.
If you choose not to see those facts and call it a win then I don't think you are worth talking to anymore as it will prove that you are only going to see things the way you want to see them.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Alright, I have no self restraint.
Bbar,
I took the time to go back and look once again at Nisei's street testing that started this huge debate in the first place.
I am going to forget the fact that they somehow ended up with a -7 degrees F tempurature in 1st gear (that's -7 degrees below ambient air temp). What I am going to point out to you is that at the end of 4th gear they were +11.8 degrees F over there -7 degrees starting temps. If I am thinking correctly -7 up to +11.8 degrees would equal 18.8 degrees F increase in outlet air temps. Would you agree with this? Even if you don't agree, let's agree to agree on it raised 11.8 degrees F. Our intercooler on a 1st-4th gear pull only gained 2 degrees.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Bbar,
I took the time to go back and look once again at Nisei's street testing that started this huge debate in the first place.
I am going to forget the fact that they somehow ended up with a -7 degrees F tempurature in 1st gear (that's -7 degrees below ambient air temp). What I am going to point out to you is that at the end of 4th gear they were +11.8 degrees F over there -7 degrees starting temps. If I am thinking correctly -7 up to +11.8 degrees would equal 18.8 degrees F increase in outlet air temps. Would you agree with this? Even if you don't agree, let's agree to agree on it raised 11.8 degrees F. Our intercooler on a 1st-4th gear pull only gained 2 degrees.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Could you post up the numbers on the other dyno runs you did on both cores? Considering how close the numbers were on your tests, I don't think it's fair to make a definitive statement that the Race stomped the Nisei simply because it made 5hp more on one dyno run. Thanks
Originally Posted by walkedu
^^ Facts are facts. Case closed. Another gold star for Dave.
I have Buschur stickers on my rear pass. windows for a reason. He makes BAD *** parts!
I have Buschur stickers on my rear pass. windows for a reason. He makes BAD *** parts!
so the less than definitive test that showed how both intercoolers were close has no bearing on what your opinion is?
and you also fail to notice that the rise in temps cited for the nisei compared to the former br intercooler, the former br intercooler rose more even when taking absolute magnitudes... how's that for bad *** parts?
and yes these are two different days with two different ambient temps. and there's no ambient temps for the less than conclusive test.
there is so much crap in the air but br's reputation just rises above it all and i think that's fantastic. but don't claim that the facts are in like ti's some sort of definitive proclamation of indisputable truth. if the facts were indisputable i wouldn't call the test the inconclusive one.
also... no one points out the fact that motec was used in the nisei test... motec with all the sensors... aem is different and using an upper ic pipe sensor is different. if you are to compare then compare bbar's aem logs to the ones that have been shown here most recently. but no one wants to look at that either.
Last edited by trinydex; Jan 18, 2006 at 06:06 PM.