do intakes lose power? do i need a tune? explained
do intakes lose power? do i need a tune? explained
i keep seeing these thread on every board i visit and it's starting to really **** me off cuz all you get is a buncha parrots repeating what they've heard and what these vendors preach. so here's the deal.
volumetric efficiency is volumetric efficiency, if you bolt on a part that increases horsepower... your horsepower will increase. you don't need a tune, you don't need a flash, you don't need ****.
if you want your car to run OPTIMALLY, as in the most efficiency and hence the most power possible... then you should get a tune, but this is even said for a STOCK car. anything that increases the efficiency of the car will henceforth amplify the power produced and allow you to "tweak" "tune" etc more power out of it becuase it changes the amount of air flow capable through the engine. but the power gain is still there, EVEN WITHOUT THE TUNE.
so this brings us to the subject of intakes. will intakes lower your power? do intakes make power? will my car run ****ty? will i stall? will i mess up my maf signals and stall? etc etc etc.
the answer? the stock intake is pretty good, it's hard to pull power out of an intake mod in a turbocharged car anyway. that's fact and MOST OF THE TIME people are mislead into thinking that they SHOULD get power from an intake for two reasons: the first is naturally aspirated cars get power from intakes but that's cuz they don't have an air pump doing the air sucking, the engine is doing the air sucking, hence less restrictions in front of the engine means more power. two, older turbocharged cars came with very restrictive intake tracts and filter setups, replacing those intakes made power.
the verdict? the stock intake is good enough. it's heavy, clumsy looking, gets in the way of everything under it. but it works PLENTY FINE. there's no magic in the tuning, you're not gonna see 10hp from throwing it on, you might not even see 10hp from tuning wtih it on. until you reach over 350, you can't complain about it, when you finally get around to squeezing every last little hp out of the car on pump gas... you can consider one.
will it make your car run like crap and make you lose power? run like crap... did you install it right? and if after that is out of the equation you can only speculate like the rest of us whether or not your intake mkaes your car run like crap, for me personally, it's fine (why do i have an intake? cuz it's lighter). will you lose power? prolly not, but the maf is a sensetive little turdstar and it hates you and it hates you more when you mess with its pipes and it hates you most when you start trying to flow 400+hp through it. all this of course can be remedied by a tuning device, but why use a tuning device to work on a car that doesn't need the piece that you are tuning for? hey... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, and if that's your bag of tricks, then proceed.
so why does tuning usually get you more power. i mentioned already that when you put on a modification taht changes the volumetric efficiency of the engine then the flow capacities are changed and you can exploit those changes with a tuning device.
running leaner makes more power but too lean is too dangerous. running more timing advance makes more power but too much timing is too dangerous. bolting on mods affects the a/f ratio some, but leaves the timing alone. however a more efficient machine will run cooler allowing for more SAFE timing advance. so where else does the power come from? many times it's more air flow, reduced restrictions that before robbed power. the more air flow must be matched with fuel before optimal power is realized.
now it seems i've contradicted myself because i said running lean makes more power, but then i cited that the increased air flow requires a match in fuel. well if you have too lean you get a lil knock and all your timing goes away cuz any good engine management including hte stock ecu has provisions from removing timing advance as a gesture of safety.
so what about more air flow? well your boost will increase or it will hold out longer. what about removed restrictions, well your engine works less against these "friction" forces and hence can pump out more air more efficiently.
examples, cams... increase air flow through the engine. cams give you more power in this way. exhaust removes a lotta restrictions out the back of hte engine. so the pumping losses experienced by the engine are less, netting you power.
what about something like ignition amplifiers? good question, this actually doesn't affect the ve of the engine, this actually makes the engine more efficient at combusting the fuel, not pumping air, so it's more of a usage efficiency rather than a flow efficiency.
i'm sure this is not new to anyone, but i'm putting it all in the same place and for goodness sake please no more of those threads.
volumetric efficiency is volumetric efficiency, if you bolt on a part that increases horsepower... your horsepower will increase. you don't need a tune, you don't need a flash, you don't need ****.
if you want your car to run OPTIMALLY, as in the most efficiency and hence the most power possible... then you should get a tune, but this is even said for a STOCK car. anything that increases the efficiency of the car will henceforth amplify the power produced and allow you to "tweak" "tune" etc more power out of it becuase it changes the amount of air flow capable through the engine. but the power gain is still there, EVEN WITHOUT THE TUNE.
so this brings us to the subject of intakes. will intakes lower your power? do intakes make power? will my car run ****ty? will i stall? will i mess up my maf signals and stall? etc etc etc.
the answer? the stock intake is pretty good, it's hard to pull power out of an intake mod in a turbocharged car anyway. that's fact and MOST OF THE TIME people are mislead into thinking that they SHOULD get power from an intake for two reasons: the first is naturally aspirated cars get power from intakes but that's cuz they don't have an air pump doing the air sucking, the engine is doing the air sucking, hence less restrictions in front of the engine means more power. two, older turbocharged cars came with very restrictive intake tracts and filter setups, replacing those intakes made power.
the verdict? the stock intake is good enough. it's heavy, clumsy looking, gets in the way of everything under it. but it works PLENTY FINE. there's no magic in the tuning, you're not gonna see 10hp from throwing it on, you might not even see 10hp from tuning wtih it on. until you reach over 350, you can't complain about it, when you finally get around to squeezing every last little hp out of the car on pump gas... you can consider one.
will it make your car run like crap and make you lose power? run like crap... did you install it right? and if after that is out of the equation you can only speculate like the rest of us whether or not your intake mkaes your car run like crap, for me personally, it's fine (why do i have an intake? cuz it's lighter). will you lose power? prolly not, but the maf is a sensetive little turdstar and it hates you and it hates you more when you mess with its pipes and it hates you most when you start trying to flow 400+hp through it. all this of course can be remedied by a tuning device, but why use a tuning device to work on a car that doesn't need the piece that you are tuning for? hey... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, and if that's your bag of tricks, then proceed.
so why does tuning usually get you more power. i mentioned already that when you put on a modification taht changes the volumetric efficiency of the engine then the flow capacities are changed and you can exploit those changes with a tuning device.
running leaner makes more power but too lean is too dangerous. running more timing advance makes more power but too much timing is too dangerous. bolting on mods affects the a/f ratio some, but leaves the timing alone. however a more efficient machine will run cooler allowing for more SAFE timing advance. so where else does the power come from? many times it's more air flow, reduced restrictions that before robbed power. the more air flow must be matched with fuel before optimal power is realized.
now it seems i've contradicted myself because i said running lean makes more power, but then i cited that the increased air flow requires a match in fuel. well if you have too lean you get a lil knock and all your timing goes away cuz any good engine management including hte stock ecu has provisions from removing timing advance as a gesture of safety.
so what about more air flow? well your boost will increase or it will hold out longer. what about removed restrictions, well your engine works less against these "friction" forces and hence can pump out more air more efficiently.
examples, cams... increase air flow through the engine. cams give you more power in this way. exhaust removes a lotta restrictions out the back of hte engine. so the pumping losses experienced by the engine are less, netting you power.
what about something like ignition amplifiers? good question, this actually doesn't affect the ve of the engine, this actually makes the engine more efficient at combusting the fuel, not pumping air, so it's more of a usage efficiency rather than a flow efficiency.
i'm sure this is not new to anyone, but i'm putting it all in the same place and for goodness sake please no more of those threads.
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,783
Likes: 0
From: Diamond Bar, California
I believe this was explained before, it has to do with the way the ECU reads air flow, this is why the cone types of intakes need to be tuned, because these cone types grab air from all directions which confuses the ECU unit. This is also why a drop in air fliter does not have to be tuned. Atleast this is how it was explained to me by Works. I bought their drop in air filter and I must say nothing but positives. I noticed an increase in power (which is surprising for a drop in air filter) and noticed the difference at the track. Works is definitly a quality product and worth the $100.00.
Originally Posted by trinydex
i keep seeing these thread on every board i visit and it's starting to really **** me off cuz all you get is a buncha parrots repeating what they've heard and what these vendors preach. so here's the deal.
volumetric efficiency is volumetric efficiency, if you bolt on a part that increases horsepower... your horsepower will increase. you don't need a tune, you don't need a flash, you don't need ****.
if you want your car to run OPTIMALLY, as in the most efficiency and hence the most power possible... then you should get a tune, but this is even said for a STOCK car. anything that increases the efficiency of the car will henceforth amplify the power produced and allow you to "tweak" "tune" etc more power out of it becuase it changes the amount of air flow capable through the engine. but the power gain is still there, EVEN WITHOUT THE TUNE.
so this brings us to the subject of intakes. will intakes lower your power? do intakes make power? will my car run ****ty? will i stall? will i mess up my maf signals and stall? etc etc etc.
the answer? the stock intake is pretty good, it's hard to pull power out of an intake mod in a turbocharged car anyway. that's fact and MOST OF THE TIME people are mislead into thinking that they SHOULD get power from an intake for two reasons: the first is naturally aspirated cars get power from intakes but that's cuz they don't have an air pump doing the air sucking, the engine is doing the air sucking, hence less restrictions in front of the engine means more power. two, older turbocharged cars came with very restrictive intake tracts and filter setups, replacing those intakes made power.
the verdict? the stock intake is good enough. it's heavy, clumsy looking, gets in the way of everything under it. but it works PLENTY FINE. there's no magic in the tuning, you're not gonna see 10hp from throwing it on, you might not even see 10hp from tuning wtih it on. until you reach over 350, you can't complain about it, when you finally get around to squeezing every last little hp out of the car on pump gas... you can consider one.
will it make your car run like crap and make you lose power? run like crap... did you install it right? and if after that is out of the equation you can only speculate like the rest of us whether or not your intake mkaes your car run like crap, for me personally, it's fine (why do i have an intake? cuz it's lighter). will you lose power? prolly not, but the maf is a sensetive little turdstar and it hates you and it hates you more when you mess with its pipes and it hates you most when you start trying to flow 400+hp through it. all this of course can be remedied by a tuning device, but why use a tuning device to work on a car that doesn't need the piece that you are tuning for? hey... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, and if that's your bag of tricks, then proceed.
so why does tuning usually get you more power. i mentioned already that when you put on a modification taht changes the volumetric efficiency of the engine then the flow capacities are changed and you can exploit those changes with a tuning device.
running leaner makes more power but too lean is too dangerous. running more timing advance makes more power but too much timing is too dangerous. bolting on mods affects the a/f ratio some, but leaves the timing alone. however a more efficient machine will run cooler allowing for more SAFE timing advance. so where else does the power come from? many times it's more air flow, reduced restrictions that before robbed power. the more air flow must be matched with fuel before optimal power is realized.
now it seems i've contradicted myself because i said running lean makes more power, but then i cited that the increased air flow requires a match in fuel. well if you have too lean you get a lil knock and all your timing goes away cuz any good engine management including hte stock ecu has provisions from removing timing advance as a gesture of safety.
so what about more air flow? well your boost will increase or it will hold out longer. what about removed restrictions, well your engine works less against these "friction" forces and hence can pump out more air more efficiently.
examples, cams... increase air flow through the engine. cams give you more power in this way. exhaust removes a lotta restrictions out the back of hte engine. so the pumping losses experienced by the engine are less, netting you power.
what about something like ignition amplifiers? good question, this actually doesn't affect the ve of the engine, this actually makes the engine more efficient at combusting the fuel, not pumping air, so it's more of a usage efficiency rather than a flow efficiency.
i'm sure this is not new to anyone, but i'm putting it all in the same place and for goodness sake please no more of those threads.
volumetric efficiency is volumetric efficiency, if you bolt on a part that increases horsepower... your horsepower will increase. you don't need a tune, you don't need a flash, you don't need ****.
if you want your car to run OPTIMALLY, as in the most efficiency and hence the most power possible... then you should get a tune, but this is even said for a STOCK car. anything that increases the efficiency of the car will henceforth amplify the power produced and allow you to "tweak" "tune" etc more power out of it becuase it changes the amount of air flow capable through the engine. but the power gain is still there, EVEN WITHOUT THE TUNE.
so this brings us to the subject of intakes. will intakes lower your power? do intakes make power? will my car run ****ty? will i stall? will i mess up my maf signals and stall? etc etc etc.
the answer? the stock intake is pretty good, it's hard to pull power out of an intake mod in a turbocharged car anyway. that's fact and MOST OF THE TIME people are mislead into thinking that they SHOULD get power from an intake for two reasons: the first is naturally aspirated cars get power from intakes but that's cuz they don't have an air pump doing the air sucking, the engine is doing the air sucking, hence less restrictions in front of the engine means more power. two, older turbocharged cars came with very restrictive intake tracts and filter setups, replacing those intakes made power.
the verdict? the stock intake is good enough. it's heavy, clumsy looking, gets in the way of everything under it. but it works PLENTY FINE. there's no magic in the tuning, you're not gonna see 10hp from throwing it on, you might not even see 10hp from tuning wtih it on. until you reach over 350, you can't complain about it, when you finally get around to squeezing every last little hp out of the car on pump gas... you can consider one.
will it make your car run like crap and make you lose power? run like crap... did you install it right? and if after that is out of the equation you can only speculate like the rest of us whether or not your intake mkaes your car run like crap, for me personally, it's fine (why do i have an intake? cuz it's lighter). will you lose power? prolly not, but the maf is a sensetive little turdstar and it hates you and it hates you more when you mess with its pipes and it hates you most when you start trying to flow 400+hp through it. all this of course can be remedied by a tuning device, but why use a tuning device to work on a car that doesn't need the piece that you are tuning for? hey... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, and if that's your bag of tricks, then proceed.
so why does tuning usually get you more power. i mentioned already that when you put on a modification taht changes the volumetric efficiency of the engine then the flow capacities are changed and you can exploit those changes with a tuning device.
running leaner makes more power but too lean is too dangerous. running more timing advance makes more power but too much timing is too dangerous. bolting on mods affects the a/f ratio some, but leaves the timing alone. however a more efficient machine will run cooler allowing for more SAFE timing advance. so where else does the power come from? many times it's more air flow, reduced restrictions that before robbed power. the more air flow must be matched with fuel before optimal power is realized.
now it seems i've contradicted myself because i said running lean makes more power, but then i cited that the increased air flow requires a match in fuel. well if you have too lean you get a lil knock and all your timing goes away cuz any good engine management including hte stock ecu has provisions from removing timing advance as a gesture of safety.
so what about more air flow? well your boost will increase or it will hold out longer. what about removed restrictions, well your engine works less against these "friction" forces and hence can pump out more air more efficiently.
examples, cams... increase air flow through the engine. cams give you more power in this way. exhaust removes a lotta restrictions out the back of hte engine. so the pumping losses experienced by the engine are less, netting you power.
what about something like ignition amplifiers? good question, this actually doesn't affect the ve of the engine, this actually makes the engine more efficient at combusting the fuel, not pumping air, so it's more of a usage efficiency rather than a flow efficiency.
i'm sure this is not new to anyone, but i'm putting it all in the same place and for goodness sake please no more of those threads.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
me too
Intakes need tunes also
Intakes need tunes also
intakes need tunes for what? that's my question to the parrots... what do you need the intake tuning for? making power? not stallin? cuz my car seems to run fine... VIRGIN ECU, BIG FAT VARIABLE DIAMETER PIPE, BIG FAT CONE FILTER, BIG UGLY STOCK MAF. explain to me please.... what do i need a tune for, besides to give my money to al, works, et al.
in any case... i already said it's apparently up to the individual setup whether or not an intake will work... the fact is DON'T GET AN INTAKE cuz you don't really need it (where the **** is warrtalon when you need him?)
in any case... i already said it's apparently up to the individual setup whether or not an intake will work... the fact is DON'T GET AN INTAKE cuz you don't really need it (where the **** is warrtalon when you need him?)
Last edited by trinydex; Mar 12, 2006 at 05:01 PM.
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Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
From: Florida
It has been discussed a 1000 times over. The MAF sensor on a Evo is very sensitive, hell it idles badly around loud cars at the strip. So changing the intake changes how/the mafs capability to read the incoming air flow.
The stock air box is like talking to 1 person. An intake is like talking to 4-5 at the same time - hell for added annoyance 13 yr old girls (TALK TALK TALK TALK!). The poor thing needs to know how to deal with this new situation.
There's my 2c!
The stock air box is like talking to 1 person. An intake is like talking to 4-5 at the same time - hell for added annoyance 13 yr old girls (TALK TALK TALK TALK!). The poor thing needs to know how to deal with this new situation.
There's my 2c!
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
The MAF sensor on a Evo is very sensitive... The stock air box is like talking to 1 person. An intake is like talking to 4-5 at the same time
Anyways, the reason I wanted to see pics of the honeycombs is because of how a karmen vortex MAF sensor works. The honeycombs are there to straighten out the airflow before hitting the vortex generator. This means that having a drop in filter or cone should not matter as long as the honeycoms are in place. Heck, a lot of DSM guys used to take out some of the honeycombs to lessen intake restriction. I've even tried this, taking the lower one out for awhile, with no noticable changes in drivability. I just don't see a cone filter changing drivabilty w/o a tune. I'm getting an Evo soon so I'd like to know what's up with all this intake needs a tune thing. Will power be made after a tune? Sure it will, but so will tuning a bone stock car, since fuel settings are generally conservative from the factory.
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