2.1L Spun Rod Bearing
Originally Posted by sonicnofadz
If you are building a motor, kit or no kit, you have to measure ALL clearances. If you don't, then you are ASSUMING that everything is perfectly built to spec, which we all know is never a good thing. Even if he bolted everything together perfectly and checked all clearances, the argument is still pointless. When an engine breaks, there are simply too many variables out there to be able to accurately place blame on someone. This is why there is never an implied warranty on engine parts. If something breaks, it is automatically the builder's (or tuner's) fault for not inspecting the parts more carefully or for running too lean and destroying the engine. It is too hard to determine what the real source of failure is. It would not be profitable for anyone to sell engine parts if they had to issue a refund to every idiot who blew up their engine due to an improper tune or assembly error. I imagine every once in a while there is actually a defect in the manufacturing of the parts, and the failure indeed is due to a faulty part. This type of situation is very unfortunate because failures are almost always considered to be due to a faulty tune, or bad engine assembly. The lesson of this story is: If you want to play around with building engines, prepare to accept some type of financial responsibility when it explodes prematurely (as many machine shops do). Slowboy Racing was in no way responsible for this incident in anyway.
Originally Posted by timzcat
I agree with you completely. I guess the real issue here is the terminology and the use of the word "kit" If it is represented as a "kit" then it should be ready to install, as is. Essentially a short block minus the block itself.
If it was just a collection of parts off the shelf then you should have the expectation that everything needs to be "size" to fit.
It doesn't look like it actually spun the bearings. It removed the babbitt from the bearings which I would guess was from too tight a clearance. If he was taking it easy then he was getting away with it. As soon as he spun it hard to a high RPM the now excess clearance showed itself. He never confirmed whether the bearings actually spun in the rod or not.
If it was just a collection of parts off the shelf then you should have the expectation that everything needs to be "size" to fit.
It doesn't look like it actually spun the bearings. It removed the babbitt from the bearings which I would guess was from too tight a clearance. If he was taking it easy then he was getting away with it. As soon as he spun it hard to a high RPM the now excess clearance showed itself. He never confirmed whether the bearings actually spun in the rod or not.
Originally Posted by sonicnofadz
If you are building a motor, kit or no kit, you have to measure ALL clearances. If you don't, then you are ASSUMING that everything is perfectly built to spec, which we all know is never a good thing. Even if he bolted everything together perfectly and checked all clearances, the argument is still pointless. When an engine breaks, there are simply too many variables out there to be able to accurately place blame on someone. This is why there is never an implied warranty on engine parts. If something breaks, it is automatically the builder's (or tuner's) fault for not inspecting the parts more carefully or for running too lean and destroying the engine. It is too hard to determine what the real source of failure is. It would not be profitable for anyone to sell engine parts if they had to issue a refund to every idiot who blew up their engine due to an improper tune or assembly error. I imagine every once in a while there is actually a defect in the manufacturing of the parts, and the failure indeed is due to a faulty part. This type of situation is very unfortunate because failures are almost always considered to be due to a faulty tune, or bad engine assembly. The lesson of this story is: If you want to play around with building engines, prepare to accept some type of financial responsibility when it explodes prematurely (as many machine shops do). Slowboy Racing was in no way responsible for this incident in anyway.
the fact remains that if he had contacted him as he should have this post never would have happend and i wouldnt be typing this right now. If they had offered somthing... parts inspection.. just to help determine the cause of the failure. But this wasnt possible due to the fact there was no contact untill this post......
Last edited by BaLListic_EVO; Jul 12, 2006 at 03:35 PM.
Originally Posted by joeymia
The #1 rod is the one that spun all the way around. The cap on it turned blue and the machine shop i took the rod to said they could not fix it. All I really needed was 1 rod which slowboy was never able to get me.
My only point in this thread is to make it clear that the kit is not fitted so it is not really a kit. If a potential buyer reads it then they will know they must check the clearances.
Originally Posted by BaLListic_EVO
see thats not the point... This really breaks down into poor customer service lack of contact with the customers. Im sure that if SBR would have contacted him @ some point in his busy schedule as he previously posted the fact remains that if he had contacted him as he should have this post never would have happend and i wouldnt be typing this right now. If they had offered somthing... parts inspection.. just to help determine the cause of the failure. But this wasnt possible due to the fact there was no contact untill this post......
the fact remains that if he had contacted him as he should have this post never would have happend and i wouldnt be typing this right now. If they had offered somthing... parts inspection.. just to help determine the cause of the failure. But this wasnt possible due to the fact there was no contact untill this post......I also know SBR's customer service has been great for me. I too have called the wrong number and gotten their shipping department who then gave me the right number (this has happened more than once as I have two numbers written down and cant remember which one it is sometimes.) They have also been very upfront with me on this project regarding my concerns (this thread) and some other high profile customers. Mark is very knowledgable about the build process and has answered my questions about his practices as an engine builder. We all know you cant always please everyone. And not everyone has the same experience. But to claim they are horrible and dont care is a false statement. Talk to Mark personally and spend 3k-4k like Joey and I have, then you can have an opinion on their service. Joey wont recommend them, I do. When my motor finally goes in I will post everything about it so we can lay this to rest. Dont pass judgement before you even talk to or try to buy something from them.
Originally Posted by althemean
this is so off topic here...the real question is what caused the spun bearings? we answered that. Joey measured some parts but not all/acurately enough. He did not plasit-gauge the bearings. He did measure for rod bolt stretch which could account for the too tight bearings..how you ask? You over-torque the bolts while measuring the with the rod and no bearings installed while on a bench. You apply the higher torque value to the final assembly which now contains the bearing, block, and crank. The crush required for the proper clearance was too tight as the rod bolt stretch torque was higher to achieve the proper stretch. This is where plastigauge would have been effective. He would have had to backed off the torque to achieve the right clearance minus the stretch. Does this make sense? I am assuming a few things here but it is my theory.
I also know SBR's customer service has been great for me. I too have called the wrong number and gotten their shipping department who then gave me the right number (this has happened more than once as I have two numbers written down and cant remember which one it is sometimes.) They have also been very upfront with me on this project regarding my concerns (this thread) and some other high profile customers. Mark is very knowledgable about the build process and has answered my questions about his practices as an engine builder. We all know you cant always please everyone. And not everyone has the same experience. But to claim they are horrible and dont care is a false statement. Talk to Mark personally and spend 3k-4k like Joey and I have, then you can have an opinion on their service. Joey wont recommend them, I do. When my motor finally goes in I will post everything about it so we can lay this to rest. Dont pass judgement before you even talk to or try to buy something from them.
I also know SBR's customer service has been great for me. I too have called the wrong number and gotten their shipping department who then gave me the right number (this has happened more than once as I have two numbers written down and cant remember which one it is sometimes.) They have also been very upfront with me on this project regarding my concerns (this thread) and some other high profile customers. Mark is very knowledgable about the build process and has answered my questions about his practices as an engine builder. We all know you cant always please everyone. And not everyone has the same experience. But to claim they are horrible and dont care is a false statement. Talk to Mark personally and spend 3k-4k like Joey and I have, then you can have an opinion on their service. Joey wont recommend them, I do. When my motor finally goes in I will post everything about it so we can lay this to rest. Dont pass judgement before you even talk to or try to buy something from them.
could not have said it any better...
hurry up and get the motor installed 
I am dropping the motor back into my car this weekend. Hopefully this time it lasts a little longer 
I have spent thousands of dollars on items from Slowboy. Not once have I ever received a defective part, and not once have they screwed up my order. Everytime I order from them they have the item to my house usually the next day or the day after. They've even done custom O2 housing porting for my DSM which turned out to be excellent! I have nothing but good things to say about this company. You are complaining about their customer service because he didn't return your call? If I were slowboy I wouldn't answer your call either. Who wants to speak to someone who just toasted their engine because they didn't know how to assemble it? . What could they possibly say to make this better? The bottom line is, it was not their fault the engine failed and there is NO REASON for them to even talk to you about it because it isn't their problem in any way, shape, or form. If you had taken the block to a reputable machine shop in the first place, none of this would have happened. This thread wouldn't even exist and you would probably have instead posted a thread about how great their customer service was. I am not trying to sound like a ***** or anything and I really hope you get your new engine back together pronto. **** happens (happens to me ALOT). Look at the bright side, at least most of the parts are salvagable and the block itself is in one piece. At least you didn't snap the rod and punch two holes through the block and oil pan. If this is the worst thing that happens to you while building up your Evo, consider yourself very lucky.
Last edited by sonicnofadz; Jul 12, 2006 at 05:26 PM.
Originally Posted by althemean
this is so off topic here...the real question is what caused the spun bearings? we answered that. Joey measured some parts but not all/acurately enough. He did not plasit-gauge the bearings. He did measure for rod bolt stretch which could account for the too tight bearings..how you ask? You over-torque the bolts while measuring the with the rod and no bearings installed while on a bench. You apply the higher torque value to the final assembly which now contains the bearing, block, and crank. The crush required for the proper clearance was too tight as the rod bolt stretch torque was higher to achieve the proper stretch. This is where plastigauge would have been effective. He would have had to backed off the torque to achieve the right clearance minus the stretch. Does this make sense? I am assuming a few things here but it is my theory.....
Rod bolt stretch is the difference between bolt in hand and assembled. No matter how many times you assemble the bolt you always want the same amount of bolt stretch within the manufactuers length limits. Rod bolt stretch is the definitive method for installing rods. A majority of all rod failure are bolt failure due to improper torque. That is why they should only be installed by stretch not torque.
And plastic-gage is a cheap alternative to using the right tools and measuring the clearance properly.
Actually Tim, a defective rod bolt may stretch prematurely, so a better proposition is to check that a particular bolt reaches the desired amount of stretch within the manufacturer's torque specs. Otherwise, torquing only to stretch will allow a defective bolt to get by, with potentially disasterous consequences.
Originally Posted by sonicnofadz
I have spent thousands of dollars on items from Slowboy. Not once have I ever received a defective part, and not once have they screwed up my order. Everytime I order from them they have the item to my house usually the next day or the day after. They've even done custom O2 housing porting for my DSM which turned out to be excellent! I have nothing but good things to say about this company. You are complaining about their customer service because he didn't return your call? If I were slowboy I wouldn't answer your call either. Who wants to speak to someone who just toasted their engine because they didn't know how to assemble it? . What could they possibly say to make this better? The bottom line is, it was not their fault the engine failed and there is NO REASON for them to even talk to you about it because it isn't their problem in any way, shape, or form. If you had taken the block to a reputable machine shop in the first place, none of this would have happened. This thread wouldn't even exist and you would probably have instead posted a thread about how great their customer service was. I am not trying to sound like a ***** or anything and I really hope you get your new engine back together pronto. **** happens (happens to me ALOT). Look at the bright side, at least most of the parts are salvagable and the block itself is in one piece. At least you didn't snap the rod and punch two holes through the block and oil pan. If this is the worst thing that happens to you while building up your Evo, consider yourself very lucky.
READ THIS THREAD AND STOP SPINNING EVERYTHING AROUND. Is this karl rove?!
Originally Posted by sonicnofadz
I have spent thousands of dollars on items from Slowboy. Not once have I ever received a defective part, and not once have they screwed up my order. Everytime I order from them they have the item to my house usually the next day or the day after. They've even done custom O2 housing porting for my DSM which turned out to be excellent! I have nothing but good things to say about this company. You are complaining about their customer service because he didn't return your call? If I were slowboy I wouldn't answer your call either. Who wants to speak to someone who just toasted their engine because they didn't know how to assemble it? . What could they possibly say to make this better? The bottom line is, it was not their fault the engine failed and there is NO REASON for them to even talk to you about it because it isn't their problem in any way, shape, or form. If you had taken the block to a reputable machine shop in the first place, none of this would have happened. This thread wouldn't even exist and you would probably have instead posted a thread about how great their customer service was. I am not trying to sound like a ***** or anything and I really hope you get your new engine back together pronto. **** happens (happens to me ALOT). Look at the bright side, at least most of the parts are salvagable and the block itself is in one piece. At least you didn't snap the rod and punch two holes through the block and oil pan. If this is the worst thing that happens to you while building up your Evo, consider yourself very lucky.
Originally Posted by timzcat
Sorry but that makes no sense and that is not how you measure rod bolt stretch.
Rod bolt stretch is the difference between bolt in hand and assembled. No matter how many times you assemble the bolt you always want the same amount of bolt stretch within the manufactuers length limits. Rod bolt stretch is the definitive method for installing rods. A majority of all rod failure are bolt failure due to improper torque. That is why they should only be installed by stretch not torque.
And plastic-gage is a cheap alternative to using the right tools and measuring the clearance properly.
Rod bolt stretch is the difference between bolt in hand and assembled. No matter how many times you assemble the bolt you always want the same amount of bolt stretch within the manufactuers length limits. Rod bolt stretch is the definitive method for installing rods. A majority of all rod failure are bolt failure due to improper torque. That is why they should only be installed by stretch not torque.
And plastic-gage is a cheap alternative to using the right tools and measuring the clearance properly.
Hope this clears up my "qualifications"
Originally Posted by Ted B
Actually Tim, a defective rod bolt may stretch prematurely, so a better proposition is to check that a particular bolt reaches the desired amount of stretch within the manufacturer's torque specs. Otherwise, torquing only to stretch will allow a defective bolt to get by, with potentially disasterous consequences.
Originally Posted by althemean
I know how to measure for rod bolt stretch. I was just saying maybe the stretch required put too much crush on the bearings. Hence his tight clearance (if this is what it was)....it was just a theory, nothing more. Believe me....I torque stuff on aircraft, have had countless hours on proper torque technique thru Boeing company training and my A&P training as well as being certified to torque bolts as a Apache helicopter technician at the factory. I currently work for Gulfstream Aircraft as a avionics technician/A&P mechanic. All of my personal tools at work are calibrated for the precision measuring that I do including my ohmmeter.
Hope this clears up my "qualifications"
Hope this clears up my "qualifications"
If there was too much crush on the bearing then it was simply the wrong size bearing for the crank journal size.