So let's finally set it straight with aftermarket crank pulleys...
Nov 3, 2006, 07:28 AM
#16
Your crank "pulley" is not only a pulley, but a harmonic dampener, made to serve both purposes by the Mitsubishi factory. Anyone who runs a pulley without a harmonic dampener has removed a function that the factory considered important, and will eventually find out the hard way why a dampener was installed from the factory. If the factory thought all they needed was a pulley, they could have saved substantial production cost by doing that instead.
There is a large body of empirical evidence with 4g63 motors that crankshaft dampening is necessary, particularly in high HP applications. Anyone who claims that a harmonic dampener is not necessary has not done much research. Look on this board for harmonic dampener discussions, or google it. I can't think of any serious racer making substantial horsepower who would run without one. Fluidampr and ATI go about it differently from an engineering perspective, but both are very good products, custom tailored for the EVO. Remember that the crankshaft and bearings are the heart of your engine, and very expensive to repair/replace.
Not only are dampeners critical to the longevity of your motor, but they in many cases result in higher HP overall because they do what they were designed to do.
The "information" quoted above is a direct verbatim copy of the advertising claims from the Unorthodox Racing underdrive pulley sales page. Whether you believe it or not, it's helpful to know the source and their interest in getting you to think that harmonic dampeners are not necessary, since of course you have to be convinced to ditch yours if you use their product. You can find this ad on E-Bay, if you like. 
There is a large body of empirical evidence with 4g63 motors that crankshaft dampening is necessary, particularly in high HP applications. Anyone who claims that a harmonic dampener is not necessary has not done much research. Look on this board for harmonic dampener discussions, or google it. I can't think of any serious racer making substantial horsepower who would run without one. Fluidampr and ATI go about it differently from an engineering perspective, but both are very good products, custom tailored for the EVO. Remember that the crankshaft and bearings are the heart of your engine, and very expensive to repair/replace.
Not only are dampeners critical to the longevity of your motor, but they in many cases result in higher HP overall because they do what they were designed to do.
4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.
The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.
The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.
Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.
6) "Will these pulleys cause premature engine bearing wear?"
This is a fear many prospective owners have and is a valid concern since we are dealing directly with the rotating assembly. Fortunately it is another urban myth with no basis in fact. The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. The combination of tight tolerances, precise quality control, perfect balance, and dramatic weight loss versus the stock pulleys reduces stress loads on your engine, extending the service life of your engine. Engine bearing problems are purely associated to poor engine maintenance, use of heavier than factory recommended oils, improper engine building practices (which includes poor balancing), excessively revving of engines when they are cold, and owners expecting their factory oil pumps to handle engine power outputs beyond 3, 4, even 5+ times the stock power levels
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.
The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.
The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.
Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.
6) "Will these pulleys cause premature engine bearing wear?"
This is a fear many prospective owners have and is a valid concern since we are dealing directly with the rotating assembly. Fortunately it is another urban myth with no basis in fact. The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. The combination of tight tolerances, precise quality control, perfect balance, and dramatic weight loss versus the stock pulleys reduces stress loads on your engine, extending the service life of your engine. Engine bearing problems are purely associated to poor engine maintenance, use of heavier than factory recommended oils, improper engine building practices (which includes poor balancing), excessively revving of engines when they are cold, and owners expecting their factory oil pumps to handle engine power outputs beyond 3, 4, even 5+ times the stock power levels
Last edited by CO_VR4; Nov 3, 2006 at 07:49 AM.
Nov 3, 2006, 02:24 PM
#18
WOAH! I read through the sales pitch that Scottyamaha wrote and then noticed in the last paragraph where it said, " The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. " and knew at that point it was somebody once again making a sales pitch FOR THEIR ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS POS PULLEY! Scott you should be ashamed of yourself for lieing so outright to all these guys.
That'a 100% absolute BULL**** about the pulley and what the rubber insert is there for. It's funny Unorthodox is the only company that ever dreamt that crap up, as soon as I read it figured that is where it came from and then COVR4 called you out on it. AMAZING!!
The fact of the matter is you can get Mitsubishi's technical service manual and it will tell you right in there that the car has a pulley on it designed for "torsional harmonic dampening" it doesn't say squat about your accessory belts.
I have been hearing that crap for 10 years now, ever since I the first time this junk was made.
Don't replace the crank pulley on your EVO. The stock one is super light and has the torsional harmonic damper that it is suppose to have in it.
DB meter was pegged on that one.
That'a 100% absolute BULL**** about the pulley and what the rubber insert is there for. It's funny Unorthodox is the only company that ever dreamt that crap up, as soon as I read it figured that is where it came from and then COVR4 called you out on it. AMAZING!!
The fact of the matter is you can get Mitsubishi's technical service manual and it will tell you right in there that the car has a pulley on it designed for "torsional harmonic dampening" it doesn't say squat about your accessory belts.
I have been hearing that crap for 10 years now, ever since I the first time this junk was made.
Don't replace the crank pulley on your EVO. The stock one is super light and has the torsional harmonic damper that it is suppose to have in it.
DB meter was pegged on that one.
Nov 3, 2006, 04:07 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by scottatayamaha
I dont beleive that anthing that is held to the crank with 4 standard bolts is going to absorb enough vibration to make any differance at all. If there is enough force in the engine to twist the crank how the hell is that going to get absorb through the crank pulley? I have a Perrin crank Pulley and have felt a increase in throttle responce and acceleration. I copied this from UR website...they are one of the top producers"
4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.
The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.
The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.
Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.
6) "Will these pulleys cause premature engine bearing wear?"
This is a fear many prospective owners have and is a valid concern since we are dealing directly with the rotating assembly. Fortunately it is another urban myth with no basis in fact. The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. The combination of tight tolerances, precise quality control, perfect balance, and dramatic weight loss versus the stock pulleys reduces stress loads on your engine, extending the service life of your engine. Engine bearing problems are purely associated to poor engine maintenance, use of heavier than factory recommended oils, improper engine building practices (which includes poor balancing), excessively revving of engines when they are cold, and owners expecting their factory oil pumps to handle engine power outputs beyond 3, 4, even 5+ times the stock power levels
4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.
The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.
The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.
Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.
6) "Will these pulleys cause premature engine bearing wear?"
This is a fear many prospective owners have and is a valid concern since we are dealing directly with the rotating assembly. Fortunately it is another urban myth with no basis in fact. The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. The combination of tight tolerances, precise quality control, perfect balance, and dramatic weight loss versus the stock pulleys reduces stress loads on your engine, extending the service life of your engine. Engine bearing problems are purely associated to poor engine maintenance, use of heavier than factory recommended oils, improper engine building practices (which includes poor balancing), excessively revving of engines when they are cold, and owners expecting their factory oil pumps to handle engine power outputs beyond 3, 4, even 5+ times the stock power levels
Holy crap I am having to quote myself....lol I hope no one thinks I was trying to claim this as my own...as you can clearly see in my first paragraph I said "I copied this from UR's website"
Nov 3, 2006, 04:19 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by davidbuschur
WOAH! I read through the sales pitch that Scottyamaha wrote and then noticed in the last paragraph where it said, " The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. " and knew at that point it was somebody once again making a sales pitch FOR THEIR ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS POS PULLEY! Scott you should be ashamed of yourself for lieing so outright to all these guys.
That'a 100% absolute BULL**** about the pulley and what the rubber insert is there for. It's funny Unorthodox is the only company that ever dreamt that crap up, as soon as I read it figured that is where it came from and then COVR4 called you out on it. AMAZING!!
The fact of the matter is you can get Mitsubishi's technical service manual and it will tell you right in there that the car has a pulley on it designed for "torsional harmonic dampening" it doesn't say squat about your accessory belts.
I have been hearing that crap for 10 years now, ever since I the first time this junk was made.
Don't replace the crank pulley on your EVO. The stock one is super light and has the torsional harmonic damper that it is suppose to have in it.
DB meter was pegged on that one.
That'a 100% absolute BULL**** about the pulley and what the rubber insert is there for. It's funny Unorthodox is the only company that ever dreamt that crap up, as soon as I read it figured that is where it came from and then COVR4 called you out on it. AMAZING!!
The fact of the matter is you can get Mitsubishi's technical service manual and it will tell you right in there that the car has a pulley on it designed for "torsional harmonic dampening" it doesn't say squat about your accessory belts.
I have been hearing that crap for 10 years now, ever since I the first time this junk was made.
Don't replace the crank pulley on your EVO. The stock one is super light and has the torsional harmonic damper that it is suppose to have in it.
DB meter was pegged on that one.
Nov 3, 2006, 04:26 PM
#22
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Quoted from Davidbuschar:
The fact of the matter is you can get Mitsubishi's technical service manual and it will tell you right in there that the car has a pulley on it designed for "torsional harmonic dampening" it doesn't say squat about your accessory belts.
Show me
The fact of the matter is you can get Mitsubishi's technical service manual and it will tell you right in there that the car has a pulley on it designed for "torsional harmonic dampening" it doesn't say squat about your accessory belts.
Show me
Nov 3, 2006, 04:36 PM
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This is a direct QUOTE from PERRINS WEBSITE:
Aftermarket under drive pulleys are prone to charging and drivability problems from being overly under driven. The PERRIN Performance™ lightened crank pulley will have no effect on your cars charging system. The PERRIN Performance™ pulley will not wear out engine bearings or the oil pump, and will not add any additional vibration or noise.
Aftermarket under drive pulleys are prone to charging and drivability problems from being overly under driven. The PERRIN Performance™ lightened crank pulley will have no effect on your cars charging system. The PERRIN Performance™ pulley will not wear out engine bearings or the oil pump, and will not add any additional vibration or noise.
Nov 3, 2006, 04:45 PM
#24
Originally Posted by scottatayamaha
This is a direct QUOTE from PERRINS WEBSITE:
Aftermarket under drive pulleys are prone to charging and drivability problems from being overly under driven. The PERRIN Performance™ lightened crank pulley will have no effect on your cars charging system. The PERRIN Performance™ pulley will not wear out engine bearings or the oil pump, and will not add any additional vibration or noise.
Aftermarket under drive pulleys are prone to charging and drivability problems from being overly under driven. The PERRIN Performance™ lightened crank pulley will have no effect on your cars charging system. The PERRIN Performance™ pulley will not wear out engine bearings or the oil pump, and will not add any additional vibration or noise.
Nov 3, 2006, 05:10 PM
#26
Evolved Member
Originally Posted by scottatayamaha
I dont beleive that anthing that is held to the crank with 4 standard bolts is going to absorb enough vibration to make any differance at all. If there is enough force in the engine to twist the crank how the hell is that going to get absorb through the crank pulley?
Obviosuly some of us are luckier then others and may get an engine that is unusually more balanced then another and can get away with using a under drive pulley - for a while. I think they are junk and that DSM/Evo owners should stick to the stockers, even with a built engine. There's so much more abundant horespower to be had elswhere wiht our cars -its not worth the risk with this "mod."
Nov 3, 2006, 05:25 PM
#27
i'll address the ur crap.
firstly they're citing their "facts" from NON PERFORMANCE applications. see any ls1s in there? see any 4g63s??? they're basing YOUR ENGINE'S safety on that of facts coming from ECONOBOXES. thank you.
secondly. of course the factory settings on a car are safe for factory performance. but that means factory rpm limit that means factory horsepower. everyone here knows none of us DESERVE a warantee. that means you should be ensuring your **** stays together with the right equipment.
they counter supposedly baseless "urban myths" with IRRELAVENT NON PERTINENT information. classic case of salesmanship or salesmanbull****
firstly they're citing their "facts" from NON PERFORMANCE applications. see any ls1s in there? see any 4g63s??? they're basing YOUR ENGINE'S safety on that of facts coming from ECONOBOXES. thank you.
secondly. of course the factory settings on a car are safe for factory performance. but that means factory rpm limit that means factory horsepower. everyone here knows none of us DESERVE a warantee. that means you should be ensuring your **** stays together with the right equipment.
they counter supposedly baseless "urban myths" with IRRELAVENT NON PERTINENT information. classic case of salesmanship or salesmanbull****
Nov 3, 2006, 05:37 PM
#29
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
WOAH! I read through the sales pitch that Scottyamaha wrote and then noticed in the last paragraph where it said, " The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. " and knew at that point it was somebody once again making a sales pitch FOR THEIR ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS POS PULLEY! Scott you should be ashamed of yourself for lieing so outright to all these guys.
That'a 100% absolute BULL**** about the pulley and what the rubber insert is there for. It's funny Unorthodox is the only company that ever dreamt that crap up, as soon as I read it figured that is where it came from and then COVR4 called you out on it. AMAZING!!
The fact of the matter is you can get Mitsubishi's technical service manual and it will tell you right in there that the car has a pulley on it designed for "torsional harmonic dampening" it doesn't say squat about your accessory belts.
I have been hearing that crap for 10 years now, ever since I the first time this junk was made.
Don't replace the crank pulley on your EVO. The stock one is super light and has the torsional harmonic damper that it is suppose to have in it.
DB meter was pegged on that one.
That'a 100% absolute BULL**** about the pulley and what the rubber insert is there for. It's funny Unorthodox is the only company that ever dreamt that crap up, as soon as I read it figured that is where it came from and then COVR4 called you out on it. AMAZING!!
The fact of the matter is you can get Mitsubishi's technical service manual and it will tell you right in there that the car has a pulley on it designed for "torsional harmonic dampening" it doesn't say squat about your accessory belts.
I have been hearing that crap for 10 years now, ever since I the first time this junk was made.
Don't replace the crank pulley on your EVO. The stock one is super light and has the torsional harmonic damper that it is suppose to have in it.
DB meter was pegged on that one.
**** THE CRANK PULLEY!
David Buschur himself is probably the person I respect most because of his experienced knowledge. I will NEVER question him. He has never lied to me before and I have done business with him multiple times. End of my case.
