I'm another HUGE fan of this turbo, cant stop driving my car even though is 9 degrees outside today.

 

Thanks guys.

Eric, The knock sensor definitely works! I had the same concerns despite Tom Dorris and Dave Mertz's assurance that the way the 2g ECU interprets knock would be compatible with this sensor (I really have learned to not doubt those guys. ). I find that the knock system tends to behave very much like a 2g as far as how much timing I can get away with on pump gas as an example. On the race gas and nitrous, when I ended up running 13.5:1 due to high bottle pressure a couple times, the knock sensor kicked in and disabled the nitrous, saving the motor. It certainly does seem to work.

This seems to be a strange thing to this forum, but I have been running 25-26 psi on 93 octane pump gas on many different setups for at least 4 years now. All this talk about needing meth or alky injection, etc, is equally strange to me. I ran 25 psi daily on a 6H 20g, 6H 50 trim, and 6H 56 trim (35r wheel) on the 2 liter (All around 47 lbs/min), and the 6h 56 trim and the T67 at 25 psi on the 2.3 liter (~55 lbs/min), with no trouble, for a combined ~100k miles on the 2g. On similar settings to those I now run on the EVO.

On my current settings I'm set for a dead flat 11:1 after a quick dip to mid 10s at 3500-4000 rpm to cover any boost spike I see in this cold weather, with timing peaking at 16-17 degrees. For grins, on the first pull after putting in the race gas, I left the settings the same and made exactly the same power, with the same knock levels I was seeing on the pump gas. So it does not seem to be knocking on the pump gas set up this way, as I would expect.

As far as my missing power goes, everything that I can think of has been checked and checked again. I can't see how this can be a mechanical problem. I've also been considering the fact that the 2g was always lower on power than it should have been for it's given state of tune, and the one thing common to both these cars is this ECU. I know it's not the 2g ECU/DSMlink conversion in general causing a problem, since James is running the same setup, with nearly identical settings, with a nearly identical mod list, and he went 11.57 at 119 on the stock turbo. In order to eliminate as many variables as possible, I think the next logical step may actually be to make the 1500 mile round trip out to Buschur's and toss the AEM back in, to tune it on a different ECU entirely, with a known good tuner, on a well known dyno (especially for this particular turbo). In other words, this could eliminate the local dyno which could read even lower than most, my tuning which could suck, and my 2g ECU which could finally be tired of living. If we don't find normal power levels, I'll come back dead tired with a lighter wallet, but perhaps a little better direction on where to go next. Which of course is a perfectly acceptable outcome.

I should also add that at 46 lbs/min the car feels absurd on the street, in my humble opinion. Trying to get a clean log just to see what my airflow was was nearly impossible. During the third gear pulls, at 6k rpm it would just spin the tires to redline and ruin the pull. By far the single best thing I've done to this car yet.

 

What Front Mount are you running and What injectors are you running? I was talking to Bill about your car (2005 GG MR) and I am seriously considering this turbo for myself.

For the Post above, I am just a little confused as to the PSI you have set at 25PSI which I doubt is 25PSI. blockhed79 seems to only have 19PSI at WOT so it is curious to see 25PSI on pump. I am sure it is over 20 but I doubt 25PSI. If you are using an Analog gauge I am willing to bet it is slightly off, if not by only 2 PSI. That and the freezing temps make the Evo read a lil off but still fast non the less.

I also doubt you will make any serious gaines with a stand alone and they hurt the daily driving aspect of teh car and also require larger injectors then a OEM ECU would need so the cost would be even more and I doubt you will see a serious gain, if any, at this power level. The way I see the AEM EMS is a GREAT tuning device but you better be RIGHT ON becuase it does not read the incomming air mass like the MAF does but estimates it based off the speed density. Technically it is less accurate but then again it is plug and play and allows you to control HUGE injectors easilly but you don't need any of this especially with a stock based turbo and OEM bottom end.

Just look at Electric Evo's car, he has the least amount of mods for his power (118MPH on an Al Flash, 93 Octane) I doubt a Stand alone could do anything for him.


Do you know when ATCO opens so we can get some runs in?

 

I'm sorry you are confused. Perhaps this will help. Note the first log showing what boost holds at for a couple thousand RPM, and another shot of the same log showing what boost tapered to and what airflow peaked at. This boost measurement is taken from a GM33bar sensor, verified by the AEM 5 bar sensor I also have installed, and the sensor in the HKS EVC, and the mechanical Stewart Warner 0-30 psi gauge. Hopefully it helps to clear up some of the confusion both about my boost readings, and the methods I use to collect data.

First screen capture
Second screen capture

I have many logs that are identical to this one, since this is how I run daily on pump gas, as previosuly stated, for several years now. Also note in the screen captures the spikes in speed and RPM with a corresponding drop in boost (load), this is the third gear wheel spin I refered to earlier.

This quote has confused me, so I guess we are even now. I already own the AEM. It daily drives better than the 2g ECU with DSMlink in almost every way (probably because this ECU was never meant for this car ). Throttle response is slightly more sluggish on the AEM, but I have posted extensively on my injector timing issues in the AEM forum of this site already. I also already use FIC 950s, just because I can. Same injectors I ran for years on the DSM. The unusually low IDCs I get from these injectors (60-70% IDC) makes injector timing faar more important on my setup than it is for poeple in the 80s or 90s, for reasons that are obvious but beyond the scope of this thread. As it currently stands, I am a couple mph slower on the AEM than I am on the DSMlink, which is why I have considered taking it to Buschur for AEM tuning. As I stated earlier, this would help rule out several potential problems. And since I have become weary of chasing this mystery problem for over a year I don't mind the expense.

 

Why is a peak to 26 with a taper down to 21 on pump gas difficult to imagine? Several vendors on this site have been doing that with the stock turbo for years now (Although with the stock turbo its more of a 25psi to 19psi kinda thing). Having a flat 21psi to redline isn't the only way to tune this car guys.

Terry S

 

I'm sorry, the second response was to the the other gentleman with a flash. The AEM EMS has superior injector control which is why you can run larger ones without any adverse effects. Buschur would be your best bet to have the car tuned via AEM EMS. David could probably find your issue for you too. As for me I prefer the OEM ecu for obvious reasons plus people are making HUGE power with them, well over 500WHP in fact.

Thanks for the MAP chart, it really makes this turbo a Giant Killer. I see it is at 26.5 PSI at 5013 RPM's, it falls to 21PSI at 7000 RPM's. My question (sorry if it was vague) was whether you were holding 25PSI until reline. It shows that you were not, I guess this is common for the 16G based turbos but still it moves some big power. Do you think an upgraded actuator would help? 25PSi at the mid range is fine so far on pump as it is falling to 21PSI, I was thinking you were HOLDING 25PSI up top.


Thanks again for posting your charts

 

I am on FP's upgraded actuator. This turbo did hold 26.1 psi to redline, if you look back to the first few pages you'll see screen captures from DSMlink showing it, with a corresponding 48.9 lbs/min airflow. For some reason on the dyno however, I could not get over 46 lbs/min or about 22-23 psi at redline. On the street on the way home airflow and boost were back up to normal. This car gets stage fright or something, it has never dynoed well.

 

One thing I DO know, is that a Dyno doesn't load the car up as well as the street. One of thw reasons why Al's tunes look rich and a little lower on power yet give great times becuase he understands that the street properly loads a car and the extra fuel is there.

26PSi until redline is amazing for a bolt on turbo.

 

I also first though it had to be a loading thing, but comparing full third gear pulls from the street and the dyno on the same day with the same settings, it took the car longer to cover a fixed rpm distance (4k to 7k rpm for example) on the dyno than it did on the street, which makes me thing the dyno provided a higher load... Who knows.

 

Kevin,

Have you ever considered running the stock WG actuator? That boost 'hump' seems to be the norm with the upgraded actuator, as documented by your logs and a few others with this turbo and the upgraded actuator.

Some people like the boost creep/hump at the midrange like that and some don't. I remember at least one other thread where the upgraded actuator was swapped out for a stock regulator and that 'hump' in the midrange was gone. Just curous about your thoughts on the matter.

Obviously if your holding 26psi through the midrange on your tune now without any knock, it sounds like you're doing good already. But I was curious if you wanted to hold more boost to redline, and with the upgraded actuator, turniing the boost controller up anymore would move the whole boost curve up, meaning something like 28 psi at midrange and 23-24 at redline, which probably wouldn't be possible without knocking on pump. IIRC, without the upgraded actuator the guy was able to run pretty much a steady boost level, like 24-25 psi throught the run. So, would you prefer the 26psi through midrange, down to 21psi at redline, or would you prefer 25 psi thoughout the pull, if possible? Just curious as to your thoughts and your experience with the turbo.

Eric

 

More Load=More Boost. If it has less load on the dyno, it probably isn't peaking the turbos power cabaility so with 2 psi could be as much as 20WHP loss. How far was it off in the time it took to cover that acceleration run?

 

I'm pretty sure the stock EVO ECU is more sensitive to knock than the 2G or the AEM. The noise floor on the EVO ECU isn't as high. Short story is you can safely run with more timing than stock EVO ECU allows you to. There's no way I could run 16* of timing at peak torque at peak boost (26psi). I'm not sure I could do that on race gas. My ECU drops into the low octane map earlier than I would like it to.

I believe DB has stated that he can normally eek out another 20hp across the powerband when using AEM instead of the stock ECU.

 

EVO Green, the way to go

 

Yes, it was PD1 that found that the hump went away with the stock actuator. I'm certainly not opposed to trying it, but I always try to run the stiffest springs I can get away with. In this case though the turbo doesn't run a ton of boost, so I'm sure the stock actuator is fine. Perhaps I'll try it just for the sake of trying it. If I like it, I'll keep it. I definitely would prefer a flat 25 psi across the board than 26 psi dropping to 21-22. Boost on the top end is what makes the HP, and when you consider that when you're shifting at redline you never drop below 6k, it just makes more sense. I also just went back to a manual boost controller, and I hate it already. I'm getting another EBC...

High PSI, I'd have to check the numbers again, I can't remember what the figures were. It was a good bit of difference though, IIRC.

I only ran the EVO ECU for about 2 months, so I really don't know anything about it. What I do know about it though seems to point toward Mitsu really trying to cover their asses against people raising the boost. Some of the higher load timing maps are a joke. The top 2 or 3 IIRC.

 

WHy do you hate the MBC? What EBC would you recomend?