Tial V-Band Housing Pics. (LARGE PICS)
Apr 30, 2007, 09:58 AM
#18
Switching from the 5 bolt to a Garrett 4 bolt, which is similar design, gained 20whp on a 400whp car.
That's 5% gain just by switching the turbine housing, and nothing else. This is quoted from a shop on these forums btw.
This is a much better design than the 5 bolt IMO, which is the main reason why I will never use an AMS turbo kit.
That's 5% gain just by switching the turbine housing, and nothing else. This is quoted from a shop on these forums btw.
This is a much better design than the 5 bolt IMO, which is the main reason why I will never use an AMS turbo kit.
From what a friend was telling me, to get the GT35R with the the 4-bolt (2.5" outlet) or the 5-bolt housing, it actually cost more then the GT35R with the good 3" outlet housing.
Apr 30, 2007, 11:21 AM
#20
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I agree on the 5-bolt vs. 4-bolt. I just wonder how this housing compares to the GT35R housing (with the 3" diffuser outlet).
From what a friend was telling me, to get the GT35R with the the 4-bolt (2.5" outlet) or the 5-bolt housing, it actually cost more then the GT35R with the good 3" outlet housing.
From what a friend was telling me, to get the GT35R with the the 4-bolt (2.5" outlet) or the 5-bolt housing, it actually cost more then the GT35R with the good 3" outlet housing.
May 1, 2007, 05:16 PM
#21
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if you buy the housing with the turbo it's very cheap...what we do is take the price of the cast turbine housing, subtract that from the total cost, then add the price of our housing in...it usually ends up being ~$70 more total, so if the turbo was $1400 w/o the housing it would be $1470 with it
May 2, 2007, 08:20 AM
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I will definately be posting updates as I get them here. The car is FWD but that is not THAT much of a hinderance with a proper setup.
The car ran a 60-1 last year, with an ill shifting ACT clutch setup, cracked header (junk SFP), and low boost (24psi), it ran 11.9 @ 127 with a 2.0 60' time. We were still tuning the car at this point but after the header cracked I stopped. With a clutch that shifted at high rpm's, and a better launch, the car had 11.50's in it at low 130's without a doubt.
I went back to the track a few months later to iron out the launches and was bogging to 1.8's. Not impressive for you EVO guys, but remember this is a FWD turd.
Unfortunately the turbo blew after a few big boost passes and the clutch wasn't holding any longer either. That's what set the new setup in process. Car now has a twin disk, lost 200lbs, and will make alot more power with the great setup from Shearerfab.
Here's what someone else wrote on another forum that these pics are posted on, it's an interesting read for sure..
"The reason for rectangular turbine flanges is purely about money. 4 bolts and four holes are MUCH cheaper and easier to produce in mass quantities than a v-band and a v-band flange. WAYYYY back in the 1950's Garrett created what is now known as the 'T3' flange. Everyone copied that flange for interchangeability. The same happened for the T25, T4, T4-divided, etc. It's actually a big pain in the *** to integrate those flanges a lot of the time due to wrench clearances and the other packaging compromises they dictate. The v-band is superior in all of those regards. Furthermore, think about the potential to connect directly to a header collector. It doesn't get any cleaner or flow better than that. Think of it this way, there are significant losses associated with the expansion and then contraction of high speed gasses. Gas stand tests for the turbine will not show it because of the location of the sensor and the 'purity' of the inlet flow. Real world application, however, will show that the response of the turbo and exhaust manifold pressure will suffer if you have a crappy manifold. Not only that, but you can MUCH more easily control the "A/R" of the header if you have a setup like that. Don't think header design effects turbo response? Think again! It's just like the A/R of the turbine housing. These aren't ghosts... they're realities if you're trying to get that last 10% out of a system.
The ONLY reasons OE manufacturers use nasty chunkus shaped cast manifolds in production are money and packaging. Don't ever think that because X company does it one way does it mean it's "right". There are so many decisions that happen behind the scenes to reduce cost and ease of manufacturing it would make your head spin. The business model Garrett uses for what you think of as 'Garrett' is essentially OE parts slapped together to make an aftermarket turbo. It makes complete sense to them to use things like existing T3-flanged housings because they don't ever have to tool up for another housing again. Distributors like ATP and Tial fill in the blanks with their own proprietary housings.
The circular inlet housing have the potential for drastically superior performance over the regular rectangular inlets. I haven't seen the turbine maps for the Tial housings, but they are almost direct copies of the TR30R (which I have seen actual turbine maps for). That's is the turbo used on WRC cars, LeMans cars, etc. The fantastic turbine efficiency (and you're going to have to trust me on this one) of the TR30R is due in large part to the design of the turbine housing. If it's within you budget, I'd choose one of those. The convenience, as you put it, of the v-bands blows away a damn 4-bolt design anyday. You think the losses from a little wastegate hole are bad... think about what happens at that flange! Also, if you have any potential packaging/installation issues, the vband will save your butt bigtime.
I have seen the actual test data from the gas stands for the TR30R and they are about 5%-7% more efficient across the board. The GT30XXRs have a slightly different 60mm UHP turbine wheel whereas the TR30R has a NS111. Although a TR30R generally has (it's all application dependent) a slightly different trim and slightly different throat width, they're very similar. The bigger benefit of the TR30R-style housing is that they use a V-band connection to the center housing, so there aren't 6 bolts that compromise the volute design. It's even the same ball bearing design (except for the TR30R has a metal ball retainer so water cooling isn't required)! I can almost guarantee Tial hasn't done any gas stand work (and Garrett is probably way too busy with OE development to run them), so Tial wouldn't really know if it were better or not."
The car ran a 60-1 last year, with an ill shifting ACT clutch setup, cracked header (junk SFP), and low boost (24psi), it ran 11.9 @ 127 with a 2.0 60' time. We were still tuning the car at this point but after the header cracked I stopped. With a clutch that shifted at high rpm's, and a better launch, the car had 11.50's in it at low 130's without a doubt.
I went back to the track a few months later to iron out the launches and was bogging to 1.8's. Not impressive for you EVO guys, but remember this is a FWD turd.
Unfortunately the turbo blew after a few big boost passes and the clutch wasn't holding any longer either. That's what set the new setup in process. Car now has a twin disk, lost 200lbs, and will make alot more power with the great setup from Shearerfab.Here's what someone else wrote on another forum that these pics are posted on, it's an interesting read for sure..
"The reason for rectangular turbine flanges is purely about money. 4 bolts and four holes are MUCH cheaper and easier to produce in mass quantities than a v-band and a v-band flange. WAYYYY back in the 1950's Garrett created what is now known as the 'T3' flange. Everyone copied that flange for interchangeability. The same happened for the T25, T4, T4-divided, etc. It's actually a big pain in the *** to integrate those flanges a lot of the time due to wrench clearances and the other packaging compromises they dictate. The v-band is superior in all of those regards. Furthermore, think about the potential to connect directly to a header collector. It doesn't get any cleaner or flow better than that. Think of it this way, there are significant losses associated with the expansion and then contraction of high speed gasses. Gas stand tests for the turbine will not show it because of the location of the sensor and the 'purity' of the inlet flow. Real world application, however, will show that the response of the turbo and exhaust manifold pressure will suffer if you have a crappy manifold. Not only that, but you can MUCH more easily control the "A/R" of the header if you have a setup like that. Don't think header design effects turbo response? Think again! It's just like the A/R of the turbine housing. These aren't ghosts... they're realities if you're trying to get that last 10% out of a system.
The ONLY reasons OE manufacturers use nasty chunkus shaped cast manifolds in production are money and packaging. Don't ever think that because X company does it one way does it mean it's "right". There are so many decisions that happen behind the scenes to reduce cost and ease of manufacturing it would make your head spin. The business model Garrett uses for what you think of as 'Garrett' is essentially OE parts slapped together to make an aftermarket turbo. It makes complete sense to them to use things like existing T3-flanged housings because they don't ever have to tool up for another housing again. Distributors like ATP and Tial fill in the blanks with their own proprietary housings.
The circular inlet housing have the potential for drastically superior performance over the regular rectangular inlets. I haven't seen the turbine maps for the Tial housings, but they are almost direct copies of the TR30R (which I have seen actual turbine maps for). That's is the turbo used on WRC cars, LeMans cars, etc. The fantastic turbine efficiency (and you're going to have to trust me on this one) of the TR30R is due in large part to the design of the turbine housing. If it's within you budget, I'd choose one of those. The convenience, as you put it, of the v-bands blows away a damn 4-bolt design anyday. You think the losses from a little wastegate hole are bad... think about what happens at that flange! Also, if you have any potential packaging/installation issues, the vband will save your butt bigtime.
I have seen the actual test data from the gas stands for the TR30R and they are about 5%-7% more efficient across the board. The GT30XXRs have a slightly different 60mm UHP turbine wheel whereas the TR30R has a NS111. Although a TR30R generally has (it's all application dependent) a slightly different trim and slightly different throat width, they're very similar. The bigger benefit of the TR30R-style housing is that they use a V-band connection to the center housing, so there aren't 6 bolts that compromise the volute design. It's even the same ball bearing design (except for the TR30R has a metal ball retainer so water cooling isn't required)! I can almost guarantee Tial hasn't done any gas stand work (and Garrett is probably way too busy with OE development to run them), so Tial wouldn't really know if it were better or not."
May 2, 2007, 08:49 AM
#24
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You would keep the flow of gas uniform rather than allowing it to expand and lose velocity through the traditional flange and flute.
May 2, 2007, 09:23 AM
#25
you say venturi merger collector... what does this look like?
from what i've heard from fullrace was that you want a slight expansion in the collector as that acts as a reversion supressor, it's hard for gases to compress and reroute up another runner if they were "loosened"
forcing a uniformity i'm afraid would create a direct backpressure at the incident of the first turbine fin, but with an expanded collector there is a delayed backpressure.
from what i've heard from fullrace was that you want a slight expansion in the collector as that acts as a reversion supressor, it's hard for gases to compress and reroute up another runner if they were "loosened"
forcing a uniformity i'm afraid would create a direct backpressure at the incident of the first turbine fin, but with an expanded collector there is a delayed backpressure.
May 3, 2007, 10:34 AM
#26
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The Tial housings have good volute geometry and excellent surface finish. They certainly won't hurt performance, but how much they will help is yet to be determined. With that said, I expect them to help more on certain turbos than others.
As an aside, that person above is erroneously attributing the majority of the TR30R's "fantastic" turbine efficiency to the housing while glossing over the contribution of its wheel. Aside from having the same diameter inducer, the TR30R wheel is nothing like the GT30R turbine wheel.
As an aside, that person above is erroneously attributing the majority of the TR30R's "fantastic" turbine efficiency to the housing while glossing over the contribution of its wheel. Aside from having the same diameter inducer, the TR30R wheel is nothing like the GT30R turbine wheel.
May 3, 2007, 10:34 AM
#27
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you say venturi merger collector... what does this look like?
from what i've heard from fullrace was that you want a slight expansion in the collector as that acts as a reversion supressor, it's hard for gases to compress and reroute up another runner if they were "loosened"
forcing a uniformity i'm afraid would create a direct backpressure at the incident of the first turbine fin, but with an expanded collector there is a delayed backpressure.
from what i've heard from fullrace was that you want a slight expansion in the collector as that acts as a reversion supressor, it's hard for gases to compress and reroute up another runner if they were "loosened"
forcing a uniformity i'm afraid would create a direct backpressure at the incident of the first turbine fin, but with an expanded collector there is a delayed backpressure.
follows the same principal that Jeff was telling you about, except it keeps the flow uniform rather than changing from round to rectangle
Simple changes is collector shape can greatly improve turbo response specially in small ci engines
May 3, 2007, 04:46 PM
#30
The Tial housing is hot. I have been waiting on a few too. The nice thing about the wait is it has given me the opportunity to work with a company on a few custom projects we are going to be testing.
The Tial housing vs. the T3 4 bolt housing and one other.
Nice 2g. DSM's are getting harder and harder to find that are in decent enough shape to even want to sit in.
The Tial housing vs. the T3 4 bolt housing and one other.
Nice 2g. DSM's are getting harder and harder to find that are in decent enough shape to even want to sit in.