My meth kit is staged to have the first shot (M10) hit at 4psi and the second (M15)at 14psi. I set the 2step at 6k and the boost gauge registers 12-14psi at times.

I will reset the second stage to hit at a slightly higher boost and see how it goes. The block handles the boost and I am fine with the power. I was just trying to gauge the feddback on the o-ring issue.

All in all 10-12 months on a non-oringed headgasket with the power I have is good IMHO.

 

Hopefully this conversation stays civil, but IMHO and professional opinion, if there were a choice between o-ringing the head and the block, it will definitely be the block. It creates a more solid surface in which to accurately seperate each bore and chamber, while providing a very good seal, with factory head gaskets. There are many many reasons , but here are 2 main reasons:

1. The head is all but useless once a groove has been milled (for a Stainless Ring/Wire) in the surface. It cannot ever be resurfaced or repaired. Now some will argue that why would you need to resurface the head again... good question, thats number 2.

2. You can NOT accurately position (or find) where the bore actually meets the combustion chamber from cylinder to cylinder. I have seen where the o-ring was centered based on the combustion chamber circumference rather than the actual bore position, causing the ring to basically get burnt and overheat the metal around it quite severely. This will develop pits at the edges of the ring groove. It will most often be mistaken for excessive timing, high cylinder temperature and/or detonation. In actuality it is because a pourly designed casting process. The chambers aren't %100 true and should never be used as a guide in the o-ringing process.
Now some of this can be alleviated by o-ringing the deck, using a receiver groove in the head, the use of a copper gasket and stainless wire of the appropriate thickness.


This may start a **** storm and I have limited time this morning to post, so this brief explanation will do for now.

 

Ringing the head works 100%. This isn’t from reading but from over 6years of hands on. We can all talk about the good and bad but take it from those that have done this and have made 900+hp. Some times reinventing the wheel is a bad thing.

 

6 years of hands on huh? I have underwear older than that. Give us some facts why o-ringing the head is better than the block, not just opinion.

 

100%

 

I'm not sure what your infering to but, claiming to "make 900+ hp from 6 years of hands on" doesn't mean that it is proof that it works 100% of the time. Every long block has its differences. Some things work on some applications and some don't. 99% of the people on this board will NOT be anywhere near 40+ lbs of boost, straight race fuel and 7-900 hp. They will actually put miles on their cars, and not just minutes or hours. We have personally seen many o-rung aluminum cylinder heads from various makes and models. 80% of them do not last very long. It is a fact. Not something that was "read" and passed along thru generations...
The original poster and a couple of ohters here asked the pros and cons between the two setups. We gave them our proffesional view and factual basis behind it. Not well it works for " them" then it should be the only way to go.
Have you tried doing it the way we have described? Have you had any negative effects from o-ringing the block?
In this case a different approach, theory and practice has been given, not a plan for reinvention.

 

not completely true...massive in cylinder pressure from big power motors, not only detonation will cause a lifted head...the o-ringing simply helps to keep you from having a big nasy problem when a head starts to lift...the o-ring can only compensate so much...with a wrc style heads each water and oil jacket as well as cylinder is given an o-ring, so that if the head lifts a bit the motor can keep running without the oil and water mixing...just an o-ring won't act the same but does keep the cylinder pressure from blowing through the headgasket. for a little while at least

 

bump for someone with more than just opinion on why o-ringing the head is better than o-ringing the block. I'd like to hear both sides of the story.

 

Well I am giving facts not opinion. Lets keep this about the 4g63. O-ringing the block works fine but sometimes is not the easiest option. We have o-ringed dozens of heads for track and street cars that have seen thousands of miles. The truth is o-ringing is not needed when the block and head are surfaced properly but it is a guaranteed winner. we have seen people burn clean threw it and yes it does take and coast more to fix it but it is reparable. When I set up a o-ringed head 6years ago with the help of m2 race systems(1 of the best head builders in the country) it was the last time I ever worried about pushing coolant.. . There is a 4g63’s out there that is making over 1300hp with no o-ring and another with a o-ringed head. A stainless wire in the head with a mls gasket is the perfect combo. It sinks the o-ring just enough to pinch the gasket and not have coolant leaks. Not trying to start shi*& but how many motors have you guys built with high boost, hp, and high miles on them.keep in mind we have dozen of o-ringed heads running around not a few. Not here trying to play the internet know it all game. Just trying to help others from my own trial and errors.

Btw copper o-ring in the block with a receiver grove in the head with a mls = disaster but just a copper ring works well.

 

Well with more then a M15 worth of Meth you are the danger zone of Meth tuning. Like you go from 11.0-11.5 AFRS and a rod just huffs out no knock no warning. I have been doing %100 meth inj for about 5 years now and I have seen a ton of carnage to know what works and what does not. The stock ECU can be very dangerous wth that amount of meth because it cuts fuel not ignition. So you hit the rev limiter and its game over.

I have a BHJ O-ring tool and do the block with a copper ring at .006-.007 protrusion. If the car is over 500whp I think its a option and 600whp its a very good idea and over 700whp its almost a must.


When I have lost my rods in the past you would be in the middle of the pull and the car would just kinda lay over and a few sec later the rod would eject. No knock no spuddering. Just game over.

I have found a capped pump and 1 M15 which is worth about 100hp is the most you can do and not have to worry about it.

If you are going to play with the M15+ you cant have any fuel cut revlimiters and need to keep the AFRS below 11.2.

I ran a 11.7@122 with no intercooler at all, stock 450cc inj. In my Talon with 3 M15s back in the day.

 

2007 alone - 39 total street driven everyday. Not one issue to date.
Also in 2007 - 11 cars with blown heads and gaskets came in 5 different states. 6 Of them with fried chambers from SS o-rings in cylinder #4
Actually we have one in the shop right now. I can take pictures for reference if need be.
Not sure who would use a copper ring with a receiver groove and stock gasket, but I agree that would be a no no. Copper Ring on the block with a stock gasket is the best way to go. A copper head gasket is recommended for a receiver head.

 

Very true

 

help me understand here... just asking for the logic, not saying the logic is wrong. If the 0-ring seals the cylinder pressure away from the coolant/oil passages, you can still get mixing of coolant/oil, no? I mean, if the head lifts, and the 0-ring eliminates or reduces cylinder pressure from ever seeing the oil/water passages, since the oil and water systems run at different pressures, you still get mixing. If no head lift is ideal, how much is acceptable? With and without 0-ringing? Fair enough, an 0-ring will help, but if the head lifts such that an 0-ring helps, wouldn't you still get mixing of oil/coolant because of the differential pressure of the two systems and the fact that the gasket has been compromised?

My motor is currently being built with a 600-650 whp target (dynojet), and I'm not 0-ringing anything. It's not too late to change the plans. Looking for a decent argument on why I should/shouldn't, and which piece to o-ring. Thanks in advance for any input.

 

I would pick up the A1 head studs through AMS. If you don't make to big of mistakes they will be fine for your goals. With our tool I can O-ring easy in the car.

 

Lucas,
I am going to be o-ringing the deck on a motor, and I had a few questions, one is do you guys use a standard head gasket or do you run the copper? Also which material do you use for the o-ring stainless or copper? And lastly how high do you set the o-ring over the top of the block? Thanks in advance.