Running methanol has it's pluses and minuses.

Plus - power

Minus - head lifting common

So here is the question - With methanol is it reasonable to assume that o-ringing the block with reduce the headlifting, freeze plug blowing, waterpump seal compromising?

O-ringing seems to be more of an old school method that has found anew home in the 4g63. Is this method a bandaid or a resonable solution?

Opinions wanted.........

 

It would be nice if you gave a description of exactly what o-ringing entails also. . . I have searched a little and haven't turned up too much.

 

O-ringing is where your machinist cuts a circular groove into the deck of the block, offset of the cylinder bore, such that a metal o-ring can be placed in the void.

The metal o-ring would be just slightly proud of the deck of the block and deform when the head is torqued down. In this installation the head would be additionally sealed adjacent to the cylinder bore by the compressed deformity in the head gasket due to the o-rings location.

Some of the V-8 guys have been doing it for along time to address an issue of lifting under load and/or the high HP output with fewer head studs like in the Pontiac motors (odly some Chevys have 12 bolt heads while some Pontiacs have 10).

 

It's not the meth that will lift your head, it's the tune and or lack of meth.

 

We are going to need more than that if you are going to contribute towards a educated opinion. Break it down a bit........

With a dual jet progressive M10/M15 shot and a tune that is spot on with almost no knock above threshold your response needs more substance for validation.

 

Detonation and high cylinder pressures lift a head not meth do some research. Enough substance for you?

 

if you have a good tune you wont lift your head on stock turbo with stock head studs...

 

Yup. We would see this on highly tuned VW TDIs as well. 18 to 1 compression and 25+ lbs of boost made for some silly cylinder pressures and led us to try all sorts of solutions from O-rings to head studs. O-Rings seemed to actually work better than head studs in that application but I find it interesting that some tuners tend to use O-rings and others do not.

Case in point, I think that AMS uses them and Buschur does not (as I understand it). Those two camps make as much power per liter as anyone anywhere.

In short I think you will have to make a LOT of power before you would even need to worry a lot about it.

 

An o-ring wouldn't prevent the head from lifting in any situation, that's an excessive cylinder pressure issue, as somebody already mentioned. The only thing you can do is fix the tune so there is no detonation, and you won't have to worry about it.

 

yea ia gree with pretty much everyone else on this, oringin the block wont take any effect on a low compression turbo car, the reason it became so popular was due to the old school nitrous cars did it as another thing to pray will help them when the put a HUGE shot through a EXTREMELY high compression motor. i was just a "bandaid" to them somethin else that isnt drastically expensize to raise there hopes of probable head lift or head explosion or warping so to sum up it IMO it wouldnt do a damn thing to a meth car, meth cars will help the pressure run low

ie you run meth to run more boost. you run more boost the more pressure that goes to the head(hypotheically). If you run high boost you cant have high compression. youll make the smame power with 10 to 1 compression on 20 pounds and 9 to 1 on 30 psi. idk frikin hard to explain what my thoughts are but you get the jist of what im tryin to say


O-ring'ing the block useless IMO IMO IMO

 

Maybe AMS can comment. I know they use it on their 2.3 RR motor.

 

I understand the excess cylinder pressure issue.

Excess cylinder pressure can be created by 2 step with meth when the spark removed as the car bounces of the launch rev limit. The meth accumulates in the cylinder and then lights off on the next ignition with an amount more than initially intended. Maybe I should turn off the meth on the use of 2 step..........suggestions?

I have headstuds (properly torqued), a GT35R, freshly milled block, freshly milled head, built 2.0, a protune with no knock events significantly above thershold (less the 1v above knoc cal).

The head seems to lift every 10 months or so and typically after I use the 2 step alot. Recently the consistecy has reduced but, I wated feedback.

I called AMS and they indicated they do not sell Meth kits anymore but, will tune and install them. They expressed a similar headlifting scenario and recomended an o-ring setup.

 

If you are going to o-ring make sure it is done on the block, not the head.
When I have more time I'll make a more detailed post.

 

how much boost are you building on the two step? Most meth kits are boost activated. Can you set meth your "ON" boost level slightly higher than the boost you build coming off the two step and still be happy with the tune?

DTM,
Buschur chooses to 0-ring the head instead of the block. I'd like to hear your thoughts on which is better. I often wondered if there was a difference. I would think machining the steel block instead of an aluminum head to receive the 0-ring would make for a more robust platform for the 0-ring.

 

Hey guys,

I'm sorry if I've been poorly informed, or if the information i give is not correct, but this is what I've learned from o-ringing.

Several machine shops and tuners will argue fore and against o-ringing the head, block, or none at all, but from looking into it more, I think it mainly depends on the application. I do not know the full details of how or why, but the block seems like it would work best for the 4G63/4 since they are iron blocks with aluminum heads. The rings I've seen in blocks are usually copper (copper wire), which is obviously softer then the iron to allow a "filling" from the wire into the void cut into the block. Then you can use the factory metal head gaskets or variants to keep overall cost of the gaskets down, assuming the boor is correct.

Cutting into aluminum (the head) would seem almost the opposite. I know Buschur o-rings the head and uses a harder filler for the rings. This shocked me a bit, since the rings are less likely to compress into the gasket, and not fill into the voids of the head. I've seen a head with his work done, rings already in place, and the protrusion of the ring was significantly greater then the o-ring jobs I've seen on blocks. This would lead me to believe that the rings are less likely to allow the head to seal with the gasket to the block and have too much clearance with the factory gaskets (which he recommends).

I've seen guys that run the head gaskets from certain manufacturers that have o-rings built into them or have a o-ring groove cut and filled so you do not have to cut the head or block. When I spoke to a machinist about that, he said that every time the head comes off, you'll have to pull the rings out (which is a REAL pain in the ***) and if it's in the head, you'll have to have the head machined and then the rings re-cut to swap the head gaskets.

Jerry