Drop in pistons, to do or not to do “that’s the question”??
And the same can be said for a shop that stands to profit from the sale and install of a "Drop In" piston. I'm sure your sales of said parts would drop if you explained to the customer how much it would cost to do it right. Call any reputable shop that builds engines and I'm sure that you'll find that not many will recommend a "drop in" piston without a plate hone at the very least.
Run a dial bore gauge through the cylinders of an engine with any kind of mileage on it and tell me they're not out of round. When you're looking for maximum HP and effieciency you want perfection that you can't get from a guy with a drill and a ball hone. The only way to do it right is to plate hone the block.
Run a dial bore gauge through the cylinders of an engine with any kind of mileage on it and tell me they're not out of round. When you're looking for maximum HP and effieciency you want perfection that you can't get from a guy with a drill and a ball hone. The only way to do it right is to plate hone the block.
Al
Problems with the drop in method;
1.) Piston to wall clearance. Forged alloys have different expansion rates than cast pieces which the factory block is set up for. It's easy to end up with excess friction, scuffing and wear. This makes heat, pumps metal particles through the engine and costs you HP.
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1.) Piston to wall clearance. Forged alloys have different expansion rates than cast pieces which the factory block is set up for. It's easy to end up with excess friction, scuffing and wear. This makes heat, pumps metal particles through the engine and costs you HP.
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If the "drop in standard bore piston" is designed properly it has the proper clearance for the standard bore considering the expantion rate of the piston
Problems with the drop in method;
3.) Inconsistent castings. Mass produced blocks are anything but perfect and many times the cylinders are out of round. This is why it's best to bore and plate hone the blocks. It brings the cylinders back into round and gives them the correct wall finish so the rings seat.
You can drop in standard bore pistons into a stock block, but you're sacrificing most of the benefits of an upgraded piston.
3.) Inconsistent castings. Mass produced blocks are anything but perfect and many times the cylinders are out of round. This is why it's best to bore and plate hone the blocks. It brings the cylinders back into round and gives them the correct wall finish so the rings seat.
You can drop in standard bore pistons into a stock block, but you're sacrificing most of the benefits of an upgraded piston.
And the same can be said for a shop that stands to profit from the sale and install of a "Drop In" piston. I'm sure your sales of said parts would drop if you explained to the customer how much it would cost to do it right. Call any reputable shop that builds engines and I'm sure that you'll find that not many will recommend a "drop in" piston without a plate hone at the very least.
Run a dial bore gauge through the cylinders of an engine with any kind of mileage on it and tell me they're not out of round. When you're looking for maximum HP and effieciency you want perfection that you can't get from a guy with a drill and a ball hone. The only way to do it right is to plate hone the block.
Run a dial bore gauge through the cylinders of an engine with any kind of mileage on it and tell me they're not out of round. When you're looking for maximum HP and effieciency you want perfection that you can't get from a guy with a drill and a ball hone. The only way to do it right is to plate hone the block.
1 - Get a Buschur Short block - best solution
2 - Have their short block sent to our local machine shop that does very good work.
3 - Do the drop in pistons
Considering that option 3 makes us les money in labor and parts sales I would say that its hardly in our best financial interest to recomend option #3 as in any event we are doing the work and when we do option # 1 or 2 the labor is at least two times as much and we make more money on selling the machine work or Buschur block.
Drop in pistons are a economical way for the customer to get a stronger bottom end without having to R & R the entire motor and they have proven to work out really good for 500 - 600 whp cars time and time again and again
We could care less about piston sales. We build as many engines with drop in pistons as we do boring and honing bare blocks. If the cylinder walls are not damaged, then the drop in piston method works effectively.
If you take out good pistons and replace them with the same bore pistons there should be little cause for concern. If you crack a stock piston and then want to drop in an aftermarket set, then the boring and honing with tq plate is obviously the best method.
If you take out good pistons and replace them with the same bore pistons there should be little cause for concern. If you crack a stock piston and then want to drop in an aftermarket set, then the boring and honing with tq plate is obviously the best method.
Al, I guess you had a lot to say to JAM. lol
I myself will be doing drop ins from TTP. I have never seen a good running stock motor have a problem after dropping in a new set of rods and pistons
I myself will be doing drop ins from TTP. I have never seen a good running stock motor have a problem after dropping in a new set of rods and pistons
I don't see it as being ****, just the right way do do it. If someone was working on your car wouldn't you want them to be "****"?
Last edited by Jackson Machine; Mar 15, 2008 at 01:35 PM.
That's all I'm saying Al. It may work, but it's not the perfect way to do it. Not all people are willing to take the risk. The question was brought up, I addressed how and why we do it the way we do.
I don't see it as being ****, just the right way do do it. If someone was working on your car wouldn't you want them to be "****"?
I don't see it as being ****, just the right way do do it. If someone was working on your car wouldn't you want them to be "****"?
However, this can result in a huge expense.
It all comes down to the customers goals and budget.
For example, not every Evo owner will spring $8,000 for a perfect paint job. Meanwhile, certain prime donna body shops will tell you that all the body pannels on your evo are not "right" and need hours of attention to get it "right."
My point is that everyone can't afford to spent extra funds in the pursuit of "ideal" machine work.
Obviously, we all agree that a fully built short block is the best way to go. With this said, I have seen a lot of customers who have great results with drop in pistons.
In fact, I have seen more customers have bad experiences having unqualified macine shops "attempt" to build short blocks than problems with drop in pistons.
Al
Im running buschurs drop in pistons (stock bore and compression) and crower rods right no, at 510 whp its very nice 
The piston/rod setup i have can probably easily handle close to 800hp
The piston/rod setup i have can probably easily handle close to 800hp
I am only here because I was sent a PM and asked to come.
If you have an EVO and want to make 500+ whp reliably or run over 8,000 rpm reliably you are going to need to to upgrade the pistons/rods.
The best way to do this of course would be to also build the cylinder head and have it properly ported. Pull the engine and build it too. We are one of the lowest price shops for doing this. Parts, labor and new short block will cost you $5600 if all that is done is the shortblock, parts and labor. Add another $1600 for our Stage 3 head.
Now, if your EVO has fairly low mileage we have done I-don't-know-how-many drop in piston builds. We were the first to offer this for the EVO's and we have pistons that are specifically machined to drop in the stock bores of the EVO's. If you did this job with us the parts/labor would run you about $2500. I have a high end professional hone from Mac. I've had it for 10+ years. It is not a simply ball hone or a spring type hone like TTP showed (not knocking anyone's hone). The hone we use will actually straighten out a cylinder bore. The problem is if the cylinder bore is that bad the engine needs to come out. I bore gauge the cylinders when we do drop in pistons and make sure that the build will be within spec. I've done drop in pistons up to 70,000 miles, that is the highest mileage car I've ever done it on. That car is still running strong at 550 whp and has been done for over 2 years.
In my opinion the only down side to the drop in pistons is still having the balance shafts in the engine, that's it.
If you have an EVO and want to make 500+ whp reliably or run over 8,000 rpm reliably you are going to need to to upgrade the pistons/rods.
The best way to do this of course would be to also build the cylinder head and have it properly ported. Pull the engine and build it too. We are one of the lowest price shops for doing this. Parts, labor and new short block will cost you $5600 if all that is done is the shortblock, parts and labor. Add another $1600 for our Stage 3 head.
Now, if your EVO has fairly low mileage we have done I-don't-know-how-many drop in piston builds. We were the first to offer this for the EVO's and we have pistons that are specifically machined to drop in the stock bores of the EVO's. If you did this job with us the parts/labor would run you about $2500. I have a high end professional hone from Mac. I've had it for 10+ years. It is not a simply ball hone or a spring type hone like TTP showed (not knocking anyone's hone). The hone we use will actually straighten out a cylinder bore. The problem is if the cylinder bore is that bad the engine needs to come out. I bore gauge the cylinders when we do drop in pistons and make sure that the build will be within spec. I've done drop in pistons up to 70,000 miles, that is the highest mileage car I've ever done it on. That car is still running strong at 550 whp and has been done for over 2 years.
In my opinion the only down side to the drop in pistons is still having the balance shafts in the engine, that's it.
I would just add that while at Pruven and now at ICS Performance I have done many dozens of drop in piston installs on Evos with no problems what so ever
While it may not be the "perfect" solution in terms of compliance with **** machning specs - it certainly is a lot better then tossing a stock rod out the side of the block.
Al
While it may not be the "perfect" solution in terms of compliance with **** machning specs - it certainly is a lot better then tossing a stock rod out the side of the block.
Al
I am only here because I was sent a PM and asked to come.
If you have an EVO and want to make 500+ whp reliably or run over 8,000 rpm reliably you are going to need to to upgrade the pistons/rods.
The best way to do this of course would be to also build the cylinder head and have it properly ported. Pull the engine and build it too. We are one of the lowest price shops for doing this. Parts, labor and new short block will cost you $5600 if all that is done is the shortblock, parts and labor. Add another $1600 for our Stage 3 head.
Now, if your EVO has fairly low mileage we have done I-don't-know-how-many drop in piston builds. We were the first to offer this for the EVO's and we have pistons that are specifically machined to drop in the stock bores of the EVO's. If you did this job with us the parts/labor would run you about $2500. I have a high end professional hone from Mac. I've had it for 10+ years. It is not a simply ball hone or a spring type hone like TTP showed (not knocking anyone's hone). The hone we use will actually straighten out a cylinder bore. The problem is if the cylinder bore is that bad the engine needs to come out. I bore gauge the cylinders when we do drop in pistons and make sure that the build will be within spec. I've done drop in pistons up to 70,000 miles, that is the highest mileage car I've ever done it on. That car is still running strong at 550 whp and has been done for over 2 years.
In my opinion the only down side to the drop in pistons is still having the balance shafts in the engine, that's it.
If you have an EVO and want to make 500+ whp reliably or run over 8,000 rpm reliably you are going to need to to upgrade the pistons/rods.
The best way to do this of course would be to also build the cylinder head and have it properly ported. Pull the engine and build it too. We are one of the lowest price shops for doing this. Parts, labor and new short block will cost you $5600 if all that is done is the shortblock, parts and labor. Add another $1600 for our Stage 3 head.
Now, if your EVO has fairly low mileage we have done I-don't-know-how-many drop in piston builds. We were the first to offer this for the EVO's and we have pistons that are specifically machined to drop in the stock bores of the EVO's. If you did this job with us the parts/labor would run you about $2500. I have a high end professional hone from Mac. I've had it for 10+ years. It is not a simply ball hone or a spring type hone like TTP showed (not knocking anyone's hone). The hone we use will actually straighten out a cylinder bore. The problem is if the cylinder bore is that bad the engine needs to come out. I bore gauge the cylinders when we do drop in pistons and make sure that the build will be within spec. I've done drop in pistons up to 70,000 miles, that is the highest mileage car I've ever done it on. That car is still running strong at 550 whp and has been done for over 2 years.
In my opinion the only down side to the drop in pistons is still having the balance shafts in the engine, that's it.
You say 500+ whp: what is the max +whp max and max rpm (whit the balance shafts in) you will go in drop-in build?
I like your $2500 total price that’s a good deal!
But as I am so far a way…..I have to do it myself
, so as to the honing: what type of honing you do, and will I be able to do the same honing by myself? Can you provide me the honing tool for that? 
As to you pistons: are they not just 85mm in size as stoke size to go to a stoke size cylinder bore size? Do you have a special piston size “that just work” whit this drop-in route?
