450awhp Power Goal on 93oct
I am starting this thread up again as I just installed a bunch of stuff (ETS 4" core, piping, intake pipe, fuel pump soon...) and have a few questions.
First, I am thinking a tune at this point is a good idea. The car runs reasonably well but there is some stuttering after letting off the throttle at low engine speeds and idle is a little erratic. A tune will maximize gains. Anyone think this is not at all necessary?
Second, assuming I will get tuned (probably spring time) what should I stuff on my car before that tune that isnt a 'big part'. As in, I was thinking of converting to a speed density setup before the tune. Maybe injectors? Anything for some good power w/o the cams and turbo as I do not really desire to throw $2500 at my motor at this point, but I would really like to maximize my tune. Sooooo RECOMMENDATIONS?
First, I am thinking a tune at this point is a good idea. The car runs reasonably well but there is some stuttering after letting off the throttle at low engine speeds and idle is a little erratic. A tune will maximize gains. Anyone think this is not at all necessary?
Second, assuming I will get tuned (probably spring time) what should I stuff on my car before that tune that isnt a 'big part'. As in, I was thinking of converting to a speed density setup before the tune. Maybe injectors? Anything for some good power w/o the cams and turbo as I do not really desire to throw $2500 at my motor at this point, but I would really like to maximize my tune. Sooooo RECOMMENDATIONS?
I would check for boost leaks and fix those since the stock clamps usually leak. Get some t-clamps. Depending on your milage maybe replace your spark plugs. Fuel pump if you dont have that already.
The two major obsticals that I forsee when shooting for pump gas tunes are this:
1) Timing-
obviously running pump gas lower octane gas would require a more conservative timing map over a higher octane gas. Seeing how the car is a street car that may obtain gas from several different locations and manufacturers, the problem I forsee is the requirement to pull some excess timing to keep knock down and keep the car reliable on the street for different brands and quality gas it may be subjected to. Pulling timing becomes a double edged sword...
Pulling too much timing can cause the EGT's to rise drastically. Higher EGTs are good for melting things such as pistons and valves. The higher the EGTs the more porne you also become to detonation/knock.
Pulling to little timing may present issues if the quality of gas suddenly changes from the gas it was tuned on. This also would lead to detonation or preignition..
Seeing how I prefer to tune leaner AFR's and less timing, this becomes my major concearn. I tend to be conservative on the timing at all times, unless on good gas. The extra 15-20whp is not worth longevity. {thumbup**
2)AIT's (turbo efficiency)
attempting to make the most power on 93 would require the subtraction of timing, obviously robbing some power.Therefore some more boost needs to be added to make up for the lost power from the lack of aggressive timing. Now you have another dillema....
The efficency of the turbo...You need to know if raising your boost from 25psi to30 psi just turned your your turbo into a hair dryer blowing HOT air.. This hot air will raise AIT's and EGT's and increase combustion cylinder pressure and lead to detonation just the same. Additional Fuel will assist in cooling the cylinders down a bit to surpress the detonation, but now you just robbed you engine of power by dumping it pig rich..Putting you back in the same boat. Generally when I see EGT's rising towards dangerous levels while raising boost and pulling timing, I begin to realize the limit of that particular car and modifications.
One way i love to combat the above is the addition of a methenol system. However i can not stress enough to those of you to get one with a failsafe signaling system that will let you know if it stops spraying. On some systems you can wire it up to convert back to a less agressive timing and fuel map as well as lower boost map, should it go empty or malfunction. I love the AEM system personally, it has a ground intterupt fail safe wire that can be wired to some EMS's and also an LED that alerts the user of malfunction.
Personally seeing how expensive the buildups generally are, I would always opt for the safest route, not the most aggressive. I like to leave the record setting to the race cars, and the driving longevity to the street cars. {thumbup**
Hope this helps..
1) Timing-
obviously running pump gas lower octane gas would require a more conservative timing map over a higher octane gas. Seeing how the car is a street car that may obtain gas from several different locations and manufacturers, the problem I forsee is the requirement to pull some excess timing to keep knock down and keep the car reliable on the street for different brands and quality gas it may be subjected to. Pulling timing becomes a double edged sword...
Pulling too much timing can cause the EGT's to rise drastically. Higher EGTs are good for melting things such as pistons and valves. The higher the EGTs the more porne you also become to detonation/knock.
Pulling to little timing may present issues if the quality of gas suddenly changes from the gas it was tuned on. This also would lead to detonation or preignition..
Seeing how I prefer to tune leaner AFR's and less timing, this becomes my major concearn. I tend to be conservative on the timing at all times, unless on good gas. The extra 15-20whp is not worth longevity. {thumbup**
2)AIT's (turbo efficiency)
attempting to make the most power on 93 would require the subtraction of timing, obviously robbing some power.Therefore some more boost needs to be added to make up for the lost power from the lack of aggressive timing. Now you have another dillema....
The efficency of the turbo...You need to know if raising your boost from 25psi to30 psi just turned your your turbo into a hair dryer blowing HOT air.. This hot air will raise AIT's and EGT's and increase combustion cylinder pressure and lead to detonation just the same. Additional Fuel will assist in cooling the cylinders down a bit to surpress the detonation, but now you just robbed you engine of power by dumping it pig rich..Putting you back in the same boat. Generally when I see EGT's rising towards dangerous levels while raising boost and pulling timing, I begin to realize the limit of that particular car and modifications.
One way i love to combat the above is the addition of a methenol system. However i can not stress enough to those of you to get one with a failsafe signaling system that will let you know if it stops spraying. On some systems you can wire it up to convert back to a less agressive timing and fuel map as well as lower boost map, should it go empty or malfunction. I love the AEM system personally, it has a ground intterupt fail safe wire that can be wired to some EMS's and also an LED that alerts the user of malfunction.
Personally seeing how expensive the buildups generally are, I would always opt for the safest route, not the most aggressive. I like to leave the record setting to the race cars, and the driving longevity to the street cars. {thumbup**
Hope this helps..
:mit su:
Evolving Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 116
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From: New Joisey
And when I mean properly, I mean all load points, not just WOT like 90% of tuners I have seen do. In fact when I purchased my Evo the reflash was done by a self proclaimed EVO GURU, well the car was awesome at WOT for sure..However the 10 MPG fuel economy and the stuttering at part throttle almost forced me to get rid of the car after 3 days. I swiftly ordered my Fcon and put it in and within 45 minutes had an AWESOME running EVO capable of part throttle and cornering under part boost.
The person that did the reflash prior to me, only did full load points and did ZERO tuning under different load points.This is where a proper load based dyno is crucial for tuning car that are meant to be driven on the street. For a race car only the WOT tune is great, but try driving for milk in the darn thing.
Dont sleep on the tune it the most critical part of engine longevity. Whats is most likely happening if your running too rich is everytime you go part throttle, your dumping fuel into the cylinders, and most likely seeing AFR's of 9.0-10.0 which is doing two things for you:
1)Robbing you of lots of power, and extinguishing spark. And believe it or not, a good load tune will give the car better responsiveness, fuel economy,drivability and power output.
2)Washing your cylinder walls, the EXCESSIVE fuel acts like a detergent of sorts and actually will wash the cylinder walls free of live lubricating oil.This will cause a loss in compression, and excessive wear of piston rings and cylinder walls. Too rich is just as bad as too lean..
Get a wideband, and get a GOOD TUNE. A properly tuned evo will drive like mine
No sputtering and no hiccups at any load point.Good luck
Last edited by Julian; Jan 17, 2009 at 05:42 PM.
Definietly go Standalone like an Fcon, Haltech,Hydra, AEM for your tune. The simple re,moval of the MAF sensor and its restrictive properties will allow more air to flow to the turbo. The tune will be more consistant also if tuned properly. Your tune is the MOST important part of your entire set up, I would HIGHLY reccomend getting tuned properly ASAP.
And when I mean properly, I mean all load points, not just WOT like 90% of tuners I have seen do. In fact when I purchased my Evo the reflash was done by a self proclaimed EVO GURU, well the car was awesome at WOT for sure..However the 10 MPG fuel economy and the stuttering at part throttle almost forced me to get rid of the car after 3 days. I swiftly ordered my Fcon and put it in and within 45 minutes had an AWESOME running EVO capable of part throttle and cornering under part boost.
The person that did the reflash prior to me, only did full load points and did ZERO tuning under different load points.This is where a proper load based dyno is crucial for tuning car that are meant to be driven on the street. For a race car only the WOT tune is great, but try driving for milk in the darn thing.
Dont sleep on the tune it the most critical part of engine longevity. Whats is most likely happening if your running too rich is everytime you go part throttle, your dumping fuel into the cylinders, and most likely seeing AFR's of 9.0-10.0 which is doing two things for you:
1)Robbing you of lots of power, and extinguishing spark. And believe it or not, a good load tune will give the car better responsiveness, fuel economy,drivability and power output.
2)Washing your cylinder walls, the EXCESSIVE fuel acts like a detergent of sorts and actually will wash the cylinder walls free of live lubricating oil.This will cause a loss in compression, and excessive wear of piston rings and cylinder walls. Too rich is just as bad as too lean..
Get a wideband, and get a GOOD TUNE. A properly tuned evo will drive like mine No sputtering and no hiccups at any load point.
Good luck
And when I mean properly, I mean all load points, not just WOT like 90% of tuners I have seen do. In fact when I purchased my Evo the reflash was done by a self proclaimed EVO GURU, well the car was awesome at WOT for sure..However the 10 MPG fuel economy and the stuttering at part throttle almost forced me to get rid of the car after 3 days. I swiftly ordered my Fcon and put it in and within 45 minutes had an AWESOME running EVO capable of part throttle and cornering under part boost.
The person that did the reflash prior to me, only did full load points and did ZERO tuning under different load points.This is where a proper load based dyno is crucial for tuning car that are meant to be driven on the street. For a race car only the WOT tune is great, but try driving for milk in the darn thing.
Dont sleep on the tune it the most critical part of engine longevity. Whats is most likely happening if your running too rich is everytime you go part throttle, your dumping fuel into the cylinders, and most likely seeing AFR's of 9.0-10.0 which is doing two things for you:
1)Robbing you of lots of power, and extinguishing spark. And believe it or not, a good load tune will give the car better responsiveness, fuel economy,drivability and power output.
2)Washing your cylinder walls, the EXCESSIVE fuel acts like a detergent of sorts and actually will wash the cylinder walls free of live lubricating oil.This will cause a loss in compression, and excessive wear of piston rings and cylinder walls. Too rich is just as bad as too lean..
Get a wideband, and get a GOOD TUNE. A properly tuned evo will drive like mine
No sputtering and no hiccups at any load point.Good luck
I really don't think the standalone system would do anything for you that the stock ecu couldn't handle Protostar1. With a good boost controll solonoid like the GM unit you can tune the ECU to max out the stock turbo easy. I really don't see why anyone would want a MBC or EBC anymore now that more tuners have figured out these ECU's. Unless you are planning on going big of course! 
I really don't think the standalone system would do anything for you that the stock ecu couldn't handle Protostar1. With a good boost controll solonoid like the GM unit you can tune the ECU to max out the stock turbo easy. I really don't see why anyone would want a MBC or EBC anymore now that more tuners have figured out these ECU's. Unless you are planning on going big of course!
for now I'm looking for the big bang for your buck. And I already have the AMS MBC, I think a good buy as I can switch the boost around on my own for different ambient conditions, though maybe the ECU does that by itself, I am not sure.I am still wondering if switching to a speed density setup and translator would be a good way to spend $300 before I get tuned in a (hopefully) couple of weeks?
You will make 450whp without an issue with the EvoRED. Just look at one of the customers from AWD Motorsports. If you want someone to deal with/talk to about it, I think AWD Motorsports would be your best bet! They delt with it first hand.
Cant go wrong with any of the parts you mentioned! Good Luck!
Dan
Cant go wrong with any of the parts you mentioned! Good Luck!
Dan
mike is very knowledgable with the Red and has been really really helpful with my setup....i am also hoping for a 450whp on pump...which i think is doable...4ws will be remotely tuning my car..and we are hoping to hit those numebrs together...good choice on parts...if you need to see my list of parts sear a thread posted by me in the show and shine called "what i have been up to lately"
good luck..!!!
ps IN MY PERSONAL OPINION- which is not based on any research but solely on experience..i believe your 3.5" intercooler is sufficient...however i would still remove the crash beam for the sake of weight reduction...when i lightened my car..it started to perform differently
peace yoz!
+1000
mike is very knowledgable with the Red and has been really really helpful with my setup....i am also hoping for a 450whp on pump...which i think is doable...4ws will be remotely tuning my car..and we are hoping to hit those numebrs together...good choice on parts...if you need to see my list of parts sear a thread posted by me in the show and shine called "what i have been up to lately"
good luck..!!!
ps IN MY PERSONAL OPINION- which is not based on any research but solely on experience..i believe your 3.5" intercooler is sufficient...however i would still remove the crash beam for the sake of weight reduction...when i lightened my car..it started to perform differently
peace yoz!
mike is very knowledgable with the Red and has been really really helpful with my setup....i am also hoping for a 450whp on pump...which i think is doable...4ws will be remotely tuning my car..and we are hoping to hit those numebrs together...good choice on parts...if you need to see my list of parts sear a thread posted by me in the show and shine called "what i have been up to lately"
good luck..!!!
ps IN MY PERSONAL OPINION- which is not based on any research but solely on experience..i believe your 3.5" intercooler is sufficient...however i would still remove the crash beam for the sake of weight reduction...when i lightened my car..it started to perform differently
peace yoz!
Still guys! GM Speed density and MAF translator?? Y/N before my next tune?
well i really hope you reach your power goal because i have similar parts/ parts still to be installed and still more parts to be ordered that will be almost the same as your's so ill be looking to your post to see how my power should be too lol well good luck
Maybe big when I have stacks of cash lying around for now I'm looking for the big bang for your buck. And I already have the AMS MBC, I think a good buy as I can switch the boost around on my own for different ambient conditions, though maybe the ECU does that by itself, I am not sure.
I am still wondering if switching to a speed density setup and translator would be a good way to spend $300 before I get tuned in a (hopefully) couple of weeks?
for now I'm looking for the big bang for your buck. And I already have the AMS MBC, I think a good buy as I can switch the boost around on my own for different ambient conditions, though maybe the ECU does that by itself, I am not sure.I am still wondering if switching to a speed density setup and translator would be a good way to spend $300 before I get tuned in a (hopefully) couple of weeks?
Car runs a lot better, ECU can compensate for everything now, and I had a dual map setup done. All I have to do is put my race gas in, flip the switch and enjoy the power!