Big Turbo Guys how much timing are you running.
#31
Account Disabled
iTrader: (38)
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,319
Likes: 1
From: Virginia Beach, Virginia
I agree with you there Mellon.
What sort of timing do you run on the 9's you have tuned with big turbo's.
Ia m just trying to see what is sort of the limit.
I understand allot of things factor due to mods.
but lets assume your mods on an EVO9, what would you call safe timing to make power on 93.
What sort of timing do you run on the 9's you have tuned with big turbo's.
Ia m just trying to see what is sort of the limit.
I understand allot of things factor due to mods.
but lets assume your mods on an EVO9, what would you call safe timing to make power on 93.
#32
Almost all tuners will agree with you on that one, there are too many variables that cause them to be different. There are two cars I have bene dealing with where one is virtually identical to the other, but they are very very close in power from watching them pull against eachother.
There is a difference of 2* at peak torque and if memory serves me correctly 3-4* at redline, but they are virtually identical in mods, and power output. Whoever gets the jump on the other wins between these two cars.
Its all about finding the right map for the car, and setting it up properly. And that's why tuners get paid, to find what it is the specific car wants and likes.
#33
Both the examples above are N/A application?
Every EFI University person I speak to is stuck with same notion you are asserting. And they have the same difficulty acknowledging the simple notion that, on a high boost engine, low octane fuel, knock will happen BEFORE torque falls off.
Every EFI University person I speak to is stuck with same notion you are asserting. And they have the same difficulty acknowledging the simple notion that, on a high boost engine, low octane fuel, knock will happen BEFORE torque falls off.
#34
I don't understand how what you said relates to the point we are discussing. The question at hand is what occurs first, knock, or torque falling off, on a pump gas evo.
Why are you suggesting I would tune a car without a proper way to monitor an engine? I happen to use some homeade det cans.. half of which can be seen here:
http://www.clubctrl.com/headphones.jpg
But again, the subject is not how to listen for det.
Why are you suggesting I would tune a car without a proper way to monitor an engine? I happen to use some homeade det cans.. half of which can be seen here:
http://www.clubctrl.com/headphones.jpg
But again, the subject is not how to listen for det.
not trying to pick on you. just stated good tuning facts.
#35
Great thread! I assume that even you guys road tuning are using something like DLL to monitor your results as you go, rather than just turning up the wick until it knocks?
This isn't really a dyno vs. road tune thing any more given the tuning tools available.
This isn't really a dyno vs. road tune thing any more given the tuning tools available.
#36
Yeah with all the logging software out there now you can road tune the car and monitor torque and horsepower, via the logger. I'm going to be using my Traqmate GPS data logger for horsepower and torque curves for road tuning.
#37
detonation cans are a good tool. but it is well known knock occurs well before its audible through det cans. easy to kill engines with det cans. much better to start with low timing and creep up on peak torque curve. I prefer to use g-tech and on road tuning.
not trying to pick on you. just stated good tuning facts.
not trying to pick on you. just stated good tuning facts.
94, I'm not sure if you have ever used the type of det cans I made for myself, but let me explain to you what det sounds like with them. In the headphones all you hear is the valvetrain humming along, nothing else. And when you encounter det, it appears as a distinct and singular "tick". Now I guess your saying that singular tick is deadly to a motor even though I could rattle off a list of names of tuners who tune with det cans that would make your head spin.
If a tuner had to creep up on the tune like you say, in fear of that one singular tick of extremely light det, it would take forever to tune a car doing pull after pull. Trust me 94, let's say you get some of the top tuners from Motec, Autronic, etc... when they go out and do a road tune, they ain't relying on a G-TECH!
#38
My point in this thread is, that you will get knock before you can witness power drop, on pump fuel high boost application.
Now can power increase with knock occuring? Well I did mention that John Banks had said something to that effect which I had found interesting. Let me see if I can find it... can't find the particular post but here is the thread.
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=227157
Remember, what is det? Well it is initially light pockets of the fuel air mix "popping". Now is it possible an engine could have a tiny pocket ignite and still be making more power? It seem intuitive that it might. But it is sort of besides the point. The easier question is what occurs first on pump fuel, power dropping off or knock?
94.. with your gtech, you'll slowly creep up on that tune, and you'll add some timing, and you will keep making power THEN you will hit knock. You will not see the gtech read a falloff in power from adding timing, and be able to stop before you see any det.
I'll take my det cans over a gtech anyday
Now can power increase with knock occuring? Well I did mention that John Banks had said something to that effect which I had found interesting. Let me see if I can find it... can't find the particular post but here is the thread.
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=227157
Remember, what is det? Well it is initially light pockets of the fuel air mix "popping". Now is it possible an engine could have a tiny pocket ignite and still be making more power? It seem intuitive that it might. But it is sort of besides the point. The easier question is what occurs first on pump fuel, power dropping off or knock?
94.. with your gtech, you'll slowly creep up on that tune, and you'll add some timing, and you will keep making power THEN you will hit knock. You will not see the gtech read a falloff in power from adding timing, and be able to stop before you see any det.
I'll take my det cans over a gtech anyday
#39
detonation cans are a good tool. but it is well known knock occurs well before its audible through det cans. easy to kill engines with det cans. much better to start with low timing and creep up on peak torque curve. I prefer to use g-tech and on road tuning.
not trying to pick on you. just stated good tuning facts.
not trying to pick on you. just stated good tuning facts.
#40
You make max power on the det threshold.
ccrain, I am with you on this dude, my tuner uses a knock box and he has not had one car blow up on him due to det.
That is why i started this thread as maybe he is just to conservative as he knows, i drive like a hooligan.
Tune to the point of det with timing and then then just bring it back a bit, to keep it safe.
how safe you have it is up to you regarding how much room you leave in the tune.
If it on the raged edge of the tune with some sh!ty fuel or a very hot day it will go bang.
That is what built engines are for I suppose you can push that det threshold a bit more.
another thing is that when the ecu picks up knock counts it has already detted.. so it also to late.
ccrain, I am with you on this dude, my tuner uses a knock box and he has not had one car blow up on him due to det.
That is why i started this thread as maybe he is just to conservative as he knows, i drive like a hooligan.
Tune to the point of det with timing and then then just bring it back a bit, to keep it safe.
how safe you have it is up to you regarding how much room you leave in the tune.
If it on the raged edge of the tune with some sh!ty fuel or a very hot day it will go bang.
That is what built engines are for I suppose you can push that det threshold a bit more.
another thing is that when the ecu picks up knock counts it has already detted.. so it also to late.
#41
My engine tuning methods didnt change after I went to EFI, but the class did make me a better tuner as I have a better understanding of why everything happens as it does. I had previously timed engines using DLL within the knock threshold of the fuel. I still tune engines the same way.. by achieving smooth targeted AFR's and analyzing overall torque curves in a dyno application (DLL) while staying within the knock threshold of the fuel.
The EFI philosophy is accurate but the demonstration using a low power NA car on a steady state dyno leaves a lot to be desired.
I'm still on the stock turbo.. running 3-14* at 25psi with a conservative AFR on 93oct.
The EFI philosophy is accurate but the demonstration using a low power NA car on a steady state dyno leaves a lot to be desired.
I'm still on the stock turbo.. running 3-14* at 25psi with a conservative AFR on 93oct.
Last edited by Mr. Evo IX; Nov 14, 2008 at 09:35 AM.
#42
Seriously 94, it is a well known fact that knock occurs well before you can hear it audibly with your naked ear yes. But with det cans you essentially have a stethoscope on the friggen motor. How you think anything significant is happening before you hear it with det cans tells me one thing... you've never used proper det cans.
Reread my post. I said they are good tuning tool. But used in conjuction with AEM and 5volt knock sensors I found there is an area of knock about .50-.75volt wide that is not audible through detonation cans. Does that help?
also it is mathematically impossible for knock to improove power. knock is an uncontrolled instant explosion that occurs when the piston is at or very near TDC when it is in no position to do possitive work on turning the crank. Knock also shatters the thermal barrier that keeps 2000+ degree combustion temps from reaching the 900 degree melting point of your pistons.
very simply knock cans are great if you know how much to retard the timing when you start to here knock.
The point i was trying to make is the first signs of knock connot be destinguished from normal combustion sounds. Not with detoantion cans and certainly not with naked ear.
#43
Account Disabled
iTrader: (38)
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,319
Likes: 1
From: Virginia Beach, Virginia
bringing this back on topic
the whole reason I refuse to sell canned tunes is because each car is different. For example, I recently tuned two cars in switzerland, same model, same mods/boost/octane from the same fuel pump etc...their timing and fuel maps were similar but not the same. So imagine two cars from different countries with different brand mods, different boost, different octane, altitude, temperatures etc....it's not hard to see why canned tunes with the same boost/fuel/timing maps are either going to knock their *** off or be so watered down that the car is a turd more often than not.
the whole reason I refuse to sell canned tunes is because each car is different. For example, I recently tuned two cars in switzerland, same model, same mods/boost/octane from the same fuel pump etc...their timing and fuel maps were similar but not the same. So imagine two cars from different countries with different brand mods, different boost, different octane, altitude, temperatures etc....it's not hard to see why canned tunes with the same boost/fuel/timing maps are either going to knock their *** off or be so watered down that the car is a turd more often than not.
#44
Interesting thread ...
Are guys using like this Knock Analayser http://www.phormula.co.uk/KnockAnalyserPro.aspx for road tuning ?
Are guys using like this Knock Analayser http://www.phormula.co.uk/KnockAnalyserPro.aspx for road tuning ?
#45
FID,
MBT is not variable based on fuel. MBT is based on engine dynamics. When you assert that you reached MBT on pumpgas on your VR6 at 22 and then 30 on racegas what you did is discovered that MBT is actually 30* and on pumpgas you cant reach it.
Evos with a standard bore, no headwork, and standard compression run into this somewhere around 19-20*. Altering the VE and efficiency of the combustion chamber will alter this as well, but not to a large degree. Overall bore size has far more to do with timing advance vs. MBT than anything. Larger bores need more time to combust fuel so more advance will work (i.e. Subaru 92 & 99.5mm bore, Small blocks, Big blocks, etc.). The only time fuel dictates timing that I have ever seen is either Methanol or Nitromethane and thats a completely different ballgame.
MBT is not variable based on fuel. MBT is based on engine dynamics. When you assert that you reached MBT on pumpgas on your VR6 at 22 and then 30 on racegas what you did is discovered that MBT is actually 30* and on pumpgas you cant reach it.
Evos with a standard bore, no headwork, and standard compression run into this somewhere around 19-20*. Altering the VE and efficiency of the combustion chamber will alter this as well, but not to a large degree. Overall bore size has far more to do with timing advance vs. MBT than anything. Larger bores need more time to combust fuel so more advance will work (i.e. Subaru 92 & 99.5mm bore, Small blocks, Big blocks, etc.). The only time fuel dictates timing that I have ever seen is either Methanol or Nitromethane and thats a completely different ballgame.