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In the forging process the outer grain structure follows the shape of the part you are making.
Originally Posted by eTiLiKo
I want also to clarify that "distortion" is a bad term to use in this case, I think.In the forging process the outer grain structure follows the shape of the part you are making.
Yes, but the argument against it is the change in direction forces the grain to be twisted into an unnatural shape, which increases the possibility of developing faults (the likelyhood that it would crack under extreme duress). It is also a cheaper process, but they charge the same price as a true CNC billet rod and sometimes more.
This can be debated ad nauseum, but it doesn't matter because again, you'd probably never know the difference. What matters most to me is what I see in the photo below. This is what happens to an Oliver CNC rod when abused severely with detonation at over 1000whp (500+bhp/liter). Notice that the rod bent (all four of them), but does not break. It serves as a testament to the integrity of the process, and proof enough for me that I need not purchase anything other than an Oliver CNC billet rod. You are welcome to make your own decisions. This is how I made mine.
I agree that facts are more important of theory,so if USA billet rods are proven to be reliable we'll buy them,
But this is the first time that i hear about fragility of forging VS billet,and I'm a bit surprised.
Chinese or economical forgings are a thing,GOOD forgings other.
I don't agree also that forging is a cheaper process. Is cheaper only for a big number productions.
But this is the first time that i hear about fragility of forging VS billet,and I'm a bit surprised.
Chinese or economical forgings are a thing,GOOD forgings other.
I don't agree also that forging is a cheaper process. Is cheaper only for a big number productions.
EvoM Staff Alumni
Great information Ted B! I was wondering if you had any experience with Skat rods?
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Chinese forgings are made exactly the same way, the difference is the integrity of the metallurgy.Originally Posted by eTiLiKo
Chinese or economical forgings are a thing,GOOD forgings other.
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It is a cheaper process. It is cheaper because it takes far fewer machining steps and wasted material to finish a rod from a forging that looks like a rod than to carve one from scratch out of a homogenous billet. I'm not saying cheaper makes it better or worse (you can debate that all year long), but it does cost less.Originally Posted by eTiLiKo
I don't agree also that forging is a cheaper process. Is cheaper only for a big number productions.
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If you are referring to the "Scat" brand, AFAIK it is all Chinese and therefore I am uninterested.Originally Posted by MR Turco
I was wondering if you had any experience with Skat rods?
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It is a cheaper process. It is cheaper because it takes far fewer machining steps and wasted material to finish a rod from a forging that looks like a rod than to carve one from scratch out of a homogenous billet. I'm not saying cheaper makes it better or worse (you can debate that all year long), but it does cost less.
Originally Posted by Ted B
Chinese forgings are made exactly the same way, the difference is the integrity of the metallurgy.It is a cheaper process. It is cheaper because it takes far fewer machining steps and wasted material to finish a rod from a forging that looks like a rod than to carve one from scratch out of a homogenous billet. I'm not saying cheaper makes it better or worse (you can debate that all year long), but it does cost less.
Are you sure that are made exactly the same way?Same forging pressure?Same steel used?Same forging dies?
As for the costs,forging is cheaper in terms of time,but for forging process you need very very expensive press and forging dies.
A CNC machining center is required for both billet and forged.
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The strongest rod is a heavy rod, and therefore your question doesn't really have an answer that does any good for you. Why? Because you neither need nor want the *strongest* possible rod for your application, period. That's like saying you want to go deer hunting, and you want to buy the largest possible rifle, regardless of the cost, weight, or practicality. A set of Crower or Oliver 4340 billet rods will take anything you can throw at them and won't break the bank. And if you abuse them beyond reason, you will be in trouble regardless of whose name is stamped on them, or whose rod bolts you used.
Personally speaking, I try to stick with Oliver rods because I agree with the method of production, and because they tend to bend and not break (the mark of a good rod) when abused to destruction.
But again, you could choose from a dozen different viable rod options and you'd never know the difference.
Originally Posted by Ted B
Manley and Eagle are both Chinese rods. I don't trust Chinese forgings, and I won't consider either brand of connecting rod for anything I do, period. It's purely a personal decision on my part given my own observations of inconsistencies in Chinese metallurgy, and that's that.The strongest rod is a heavy rod, and therefore your question doesn't really have an answer that does any good for you. Why? Because you neither need nor want the *strongest* possible rod for your application, period. That's like saying you want to go deer hunting, and you want to buy the largest possible rifle, regardless of the cost, weight, or practicality. A set of Crower or Oliver 4340 billet rods will take anything you can throw at them and won't break the bank. And if you abuse them beyond reason, you will be in trouble regardless of whose name is stamped on them, or whose rod bolts you used.
Personally speaking, I try to stick with Oliver rods because I agree with the method of production, and because they tend to bend and not break (the mark of a good rod) when abused to destruction.
But again, you could choose from a dozen different viable rod options and you'd never know the difference.
Manley rods are not made in China. If you are ever in NJ go to Manley and ask for Tom and he will take you for a tour and show you.
Are you sure none of their rods are forged in China and finished here? Are you absolutely certain?
Evolving Member
Carrillo makes an excellent rod. The materials used to create both the rod and rod bolts cannot be compared to eagle, scat, manley or many other cheaper rods. Furthermore, their manufacturing tolerance (which 99.99% of the people on this forum have never measured) are also far superior. If you can afford it, buy the Carrillo H-beam rods and forget about it.
The Oliver rods are good quality as well.
BTW, rods RARELY fail due to "horsepower". Compression is not what causes connecting rods to fail, it is the pulling force trying to rip the rod in two that causes rod bolt failures or potentially separates the beam. Heavy pistons and high RPM further increase this type of stress.
The Oliver rods are good quality as well.
BTW, rods RARELY fail due to "horsepower". Compression is not what causes connecting rods to fail, it is the pulling force trying to rip the rod in two that causes rod bolt failures or potentially separates the beam. Heavy pistons and high RPM further increase this type of stress.
Former Sponsor
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The forging is done on forge tooling(designed and owned by Manley) at a USA forging house and all the machining is done in Lakewood NJ.Originally Posted by Ted B
Are you sure none of their rods are forged in China and finished here? Are you absolutely certain?
Account Disabled
I can assure you Manley is not made in china.
Scat, K1 (owned by Carillo), Eagle, Brian Crower and a couple of off brands are made on the SAME "assembly line". I have seen it first hand.
Even K1 cranks that have become extremely popular are made in China. COMPLETELY made in china. Alot more than what has been posted in this thread would surprise people. ALOT or the large majority of castings are done in the mainland of China. Some good , some bad. Then there is the knock off products from the "good" chinese made offerings. There is alot to "buying chinese".
Know and/or research what your buying if you are concerned with your purchase.
As far as the H-beam vs I-beam controversy...we can go on all day long. A good H-beam rod is all you will need for a daily driven or even good running race car. I tend to go with an I-beam in Higher revving engines. Meaning ones that spend a great deal of time or the majority of it over 9000rpm. Not because they are stronger but because it would be purposely built to have great deal of tensile load on the rod. An I-Beam will shine in that area.
Scat, K1 (owned by Carillo), Eagle, Brian Crower and a couple of off brands are made on the SAME "assembly line". I have seen it first hand.
Even K1 cranks that have become extremely popular are made in China. COMPLETELY made in china. Alot more than what has been posted in this thread would surprise people. ALOT or the large majority of castings are done in the mainland of China. Some good , some bad. Then there is the knock off products from the "good" chinese made offerings. There is alot to "buying chinese".
Know and/or research what your buying if you are concerned with your purchase.
As far as the H-beam vs I-beam controversy...we can go on all day long. A good H-beam rod is all you will need for a daily driven or even good running race car. I tend to go with an I-beam in Higher revving engines. Meaning ones that spend a great deal of time or the majority of it over 9000rpm. Not because they are stronger but because it would be purposely built to have great deal of tensile load on the rod. An I-Beam will shine in that area.
Former Sponsor
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Scat, K1 (owned by Carillo), Eagle, Brian Crower and a couple of off brands are made on the SAME "assembly line". I have seen it first hand.
Even K1 cranks that have become extremely popular are made in China. COMPLETELY made in china. Alot more than what has been posted in this thread would surprise people. ALOT or the large majority of castings are done in the mainland of China. Some good , some bad. Then there is the knock off products from the "good" chinese made offerings. There is alot to "buying chinese".
Know and/or research what your buying if you are concerned with your purchase.
As far as the H-beam vs I-beam controversy...we can go on all day long. A good H-beam rod is all you will need for a daily driven or even good running race car. I tend to go with an I-beam in Higher revving engines. Meaning ones that spend a great deal of time or the majority of it over 9000rpm. Not because they are stronger but because it would be purposely built to have great deal of tensile load on the rod. An I-Beam will shine in that area.
K1 is for sure made in china, they will even tell you that.Originally Posted by DTM
I can assure you Manley is not made in china. Scat, K1 (owned by Carillo), Eagle, Brian Crower and a couple of off brands are made on the SAME "assembly line". I have seen it first hand.
Even K1 cranks that have become extremely popular are made in China. COMPLETELY made in china. Alot more than what has been posted in this thread would surprise people. ALOT or the large majority of castings are done in the mainland of China. Some good , some bad. Then there is the knock off products from the "good" chinese made offerings. There is alot to "buying chinese".
Know and/or research what your buying if you are concerned with your purchase.
As far as the H-beam vs I-beam controversy...we can go on all day long. A good H-beam rod is all you will need for a daily driven or even good running race car. I tend to go with an I-beam in Higher revving engines. Meaning ones that spend a great deal of time or the majority of it over 9000rpm. Not because they are stronger but because it would be purposely built to have great deal of tensile load on the rod. An I-Beam will shine in that area.
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Originally Posted by Chris@nolimitmotors
The forging is done on forge tooling(designed and owned by Manley) at a USA forging house and all the machining is done in Lakewood NJ.
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Originally Posted by DTM
I can assure you Manley is not made in china.
And here is where both of you will learn something.
Just yesterday I had a conversation with someone in Manley's management (not a salesman) who confirmed that Manley's H-beam rods are indeed all forged in China. Only the I-beams are USA made.
I hope that clarifies any ambiguity on the subject.
When I asked why the H-beams were forged in China, he explained that due to the fact that the vast majority of H-beams in the market are forged in China, the development and marketing of a USA made H-beam is an economic infeasibility.
The bottom line is if one is looking at an H-beam rod, and is concerned about getting a Chinese forging, the only way to truly know is to ask someone who knows for certain, which may not be a salesperson.
Evolved Member
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Just yesterday I had a conversation with someone in Manley's management (not a salesman) who confirmed that Manley's H-beam rods are indeed all forged in China. Only the I-beams are USA made.
I hope that clarifies any ambiguity on the subject.
When I asked why the H-beams were forged in China, he explained that due to the fact that the vast majority of H-beams in the market are forged in China, the development and marketing of a USA made H-beam is an economic infeasibility.
The bottom line is if one is looking at an H-beam rod, and is concerned about getting a Chinese forging, the only way to truly know is to ask someone who knows for certain, which may not be a salesperson.
IF this is true then it false advertisement.Originally Posted by Ted B
And here is where both of you will learn something.Just yesterday I had a conversation with someone in Manley's management (not a salesman) who confirmed that Manley's H-beam rods are indeed all forged in China. Only the I-beams are USA made.
I hope that clarifies any ambiguity on the subject.
When I asked why the H-beams were forged in China, he explained that due to the fact that the vast majority of H-beams in the market are forged in China, the development and marketing of a USA made H-beam is an economic infeasibility.
The bottom line is if one is looking at an H-beam rod, and is concerned about getting a Chinese forging, the only way to truly know is to ask someone who knows for certain, which may not be a salesperson.
Here is a link it says ALL RODS EVEN H BEAM ARE MADE IN USA.
http://www.sullivanperformance.com/Y...stons/rods.htm
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Just for the record, I have spoken to some USA rod manufacturers who have stated that their billets rods are comparable to Carrillo's in strength.
Also, my cousin-in-law used to work at Cosworth. They had some sort of rod-bending apparatus there for bent rods. The one rod that wouldn't go back into shape when damaged were the Carrillo's...they were that strong.
Also, my cousin-in-law used to work at Cosworth. They had some sort of rod-bending apparatus there for bent rods. The one rod that wouldn't go back into shape when damaged were the Carrillo's...they were that strong.