When/why do I need a fuel pressure regulator?
Dec 3, 2008, 06:50 AM
#16
Do not use a rising rate FPR on the car. A rising rate FPR is not what you want. The regulator on our cars raises boost:FRP at a rate of 1:1. Meaning for every extra pound of boost you run the fuel pressure also raises 1 psi.
A raising rate FPR may be 1:16, so for every 1 psi of boost it will raise the fuel pressure say 16 psi. They have them in all different ratios and it is NOT the correct way to fix the problem you are having.
It sounds to me like the car is just borderline out of fuel. If you are done with the turbo upgrades on the car and don't plan to make a lot more power a simple bolt on 1:1 regulator is all you need (like ours). If you plan to make a lot more power in the future then you may as well put in larger injectors or do both.
A raising rate FPR may be 1:16, so for every 1 psi of boost it will raise the fuel pressure say 16 psi. They have them in all different ratios and it is NOT the correct way to fix the problem you are having.
It sounds to me like the car is just borderline out of fuel. If you are done with the turbo upgrades on the car and don't plan to make a lot more power a simple bolt on 1:1 regulator is all you need (like ours). If you plan to make a lot more power in the future then you may as well put in larger injectors or do both.
Dec 19, 2008, 11:27 PM
#17
Has anyone done 1600cc + Dual pumps on the stock rail and FPR?
I am wondering if the the second pump and 1600cc injector will over run the FPR. I know some post stated WHP limits and wrong sizing but what about this combo?
T3 37R 21-28 psi is my targeted area.
I am wondering if the the second pump and 1600cc injector will over run the FPR. I know some post stated WHP limits and wrong sizing but what about this combo?
T3 37R 21-28 psi is my targeted area.
Last edited by omniprobe; Dec 19, 2008 at 11:30 PM.
Dec 20, 2008, 05:03 AM
#18
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HHHemmmmm.....
Well I was hoping to be able to share some datalogs here to demostrate the problem. Unfortunately when we did datalog the car we a) didn't have the correct latency for the injectors and b) it doesn't really matter because the temporary tune I have on there is complete garbage!!! Starts throwing 6 counts of knock from 4000 rpms, down to 3-5 until 7k and then 10 counts of knock around 7k!!! Also noticed that the ECU is pulling fuel bigtime...from 255 gradually down to 251 at redline.
In short - need a retune BAD before I can even get down to analyzing fueling issues etc.
Can't even turn my boost down properly - using a Greddy EBC and no matter how much I turn down the gain and target boost I'm getting a huge spike to 1.8/1.9 before it settles and holds whatever target boost I want.
Soooo...lesson learned. Going back to my REAL tuner who lives in Singapore...far way form me in Dubai but the guy has done me right so far - previous tune was a zero knock 1.8 par tune that's never let me down on track. He's at least methodical, knows his stuff inside out and is a diehard 0 knock tuner - whereas the guy locally here has basically tuned me to blow my engine to bits it seems. Didn't even know how to set up my EBC (which he installed) and had to do it myself so he could "tune" me. Won't be going back there anyways. :P
Will eventually be sticking the rising rate pressure regulator on, just to get the most from my injetors while keeping atomization in check. It may fly in the face of what all you cuys are saying but I guess it's all about trusting the right tuner, eh?
If I was is the US I'd be happy to let someone else tune me of course...as flights form Singapore would be quite prohibitive
Thanks for the replies, will revisit this issue when I have my tune somewhat sorted out and can share some decent logs!
Well I was hoping to be able to share some datalogs here to demostrate the problem. Unfortunately when we did datalog the car we a) didn't have the correct latency for the injectors and b) it doesn't really matter because the temporary tune I have on there is complete garbage!!! Starts throwing 6 counts of knock from 4000 rpms, down to 3-5 until 7k and then 10 counts of knock around 7k!!! Also noticed that the ECU is pulling fuel bigtime...from 255 gradually down to 251 at redline.
In short - need a retune BAD before I can even get down to analyzing fueling issues etc.
Can't even turn my boost down properly - using a Greddy EBC and no matter how much I turn down the gain and target boost I'm getting a huge spike to 1.8/1.9 before it settles and holds whatever target boost I want.
Soooo...lesson learned. Going back to my REAL tuner who lives in Singapore...far way form me in Dubai but the guy has done me right so far - previous tune was a zero knock 1.8 par tune that's never let me down on track. He's at least methodical, knows his stuff inside out and is a diehard 0 knock tuner - whereas the guy locally here has basically tuned me to blow my engine to bits it seems. Didn't even know how to set up my EBC (which he installed) and had to do it myself so he could "tune" me. Won't be going back there anyways. :P
Will eventually be sticking the rising rate pressure regulator on, just to get the most from my injetors while keeping atomization in check. It may fly in the face of what all you cuys are saying but I guess it's all about trusting the right tuner, eh?
If I was is the US I'd be happy to let someone else tune me of course...as flights form Singapore would be quite prohibitive
Thanks for the replies, will revisit this issue when I have my tune somewhat sorted out and can share some decent logs!
Dec 20, 2008, 07:39 AM
#19
A maxed injector is a maxed injector, regardless of what fuel pressure you throw at it. IDC's become the enemy stressing out the injector, and the added strain of fuel pressure above and beyond what it's meant to do in a normal operation is just asking for trouble. Even offering the leniency of a BSFC of .6 I still wouldn't run the IDC's past 85%. Plain and simple the real answer is...
You need larger injectors!
The only reason your "tuner" said a rising rate regulator (such as the vortech units that are anywhere between 1:5 and 1:12) was to use extra fuel pressure as a band-aid and is not the correct way to do it. Plus extra fuel pressure screws with the atomization process in a bad way. I won't get into explaining it here, just take my word on it and the 12 years experience of seeing it on a constant basis.
You need larger injectors!
The only reason your "tuner" said a rising rate regulator (such as the vortech units that are anywhere between 1:5 and 1:12) was to use extra fuel pressure as a band-aid and is not the correct way to do it. Plus extra fuel pressure screws with the atomization process in a bad way. I won't get into explaining it here, just take my word on it and the 12 years experience of seeing it on a constant basis.
Dec 20, 2008, 06:44 PM
#20
Yes, we run 1600cc injectors, double pumper, stock rail/regulators. The double pumper will not over run the stock regulator if the pumps are set up correctly. There is no need to run both pumps at idle. Our double pumper comes with a pressure switch that turns the second pump on at about 6 psi of boost.
slocrx1, your information is not correct on the IDC and fuel pressure, sorry. A maxed out injector running a base fuel pressure of 30 psi is going to flow a lot less than an injector running with a base fuel pressure of 43-45 psi where most injectors are flowed and rated at. I run injectors close to and at 100% constantly, I have never-ever had a problem with an injector doing this, none. I do agree with you on the Vortech type raising rate fuel pressure regulators not being the correct way to do it and stated that earlier in the thread.
slocrx1, your information is not correct on the IDC and fuel pressure, sorry. A maxed out injector running a base fuel pressure of 30 psi is going to flow a lot less than an injector running with a base fuel pressure of 43-45 psi where most injectors are flowed and rated at. I run injectors close to and at 100% constantly, I have never-ever had a problem with an injector doing this, none. I do agree with you on the Vortech type raising rate fuel pressure regulators not being the correct way to do it and stated that earlier in the thread.
Dec 20, 2008, 07:34 PM
#21
slocrx1, your information is not correct on the IDC and fuel pressure, sorry. A maxed out injector running a base fuel pressure of 30 psi is going to flow a lot less than an injector running with a base fuel pressure of 43-45 psi where most injectors are flowed and rated at. I run injectors close to and at 100% constantly, I have never-ever had a problem with an injector doing this, none. I do agree with you on the Vortech type raising rate fuel pressure regulators not being the correct way to do it and stated that earlier in the thread.
I'm going to keep my post civil for now, but how can an "experienced engine builder" in all honesty sit here and suggest running 100% IDC? Sure you can get away with it for a short time (like at the track only, which I assume is all you do with your car), but for extended periods of time like daily driving the injectors will burn out or worse (like burn out the injector driver in the ecu) like I've seen countless times. I'm honestly quite surprised you haven't jumped on the opportunity to sell him a set of 780cc injectors or larger.
Sorry if I my comments seem a little spiteful, but I'm not your average Evo owner and neither do I care to be.
Dec 21, 2008, 05:36 AM
#22
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Dec 21, 2008, 01:37 PM
#23
slocrx, I don't what your problem is but I'm fairly certain your experience level is less than many others on these forums. If you go back and read your post you will see how it was misleading to people who are not fully aware of how the fuel system works.
The post you just made refering to "morons" is also just as wrong as your first post. The information you just posted tells me you aren't as intelligent as you are wanting people to believe.
First off, the EVO has about 38 psi of rail pressure with the stock regulator. Every aftermarket injector our there is flowed at 43-45 psi depending on the manufacturer. So just adding an adjustable regulator to the car for an increase of 5-7 psi of rail pressure is beneficial if you are on the edge of running out of injector. Also, if you have a base rail pressure of 38 and run 22 psi of boost it does give you a rail pressure of 60 psi but that 60 psi is obviously not running the injector at over what they were rated as, as you stated. The additional pressure applied to the injector is to over come the boost pressure in the intake manifold. The actual flow of the injector is still at only 38 psi of pressure. I'm surprised you don't know that..............maybe the moron suggestion you made isn't so far after all.
Also, your little stab at me only running a car for short burst at the drag strip is as stupid as you saying this: "(like at the track only, which I assume is all you do with your car), but for extended periods of time like daily driving the injectors will burn out or worse (like burn out the injector driver in the ecu) like I've seen countless times." A car doesn't run 100% duty cycle when you are daily driving it, you must be highly confused. I can run a GT45 around all day long on a set of 550 cc injectors at 12% duty cycle, daily driving a car with no boost required almost no injector duty cycle at all. The time any car spends at WOT is very short and running it at 100% duty cycle during that time will cause no damage. I've been building cars for 20 years and have never seen any of the failures you've mentioned, ever.
I don't sell part that aren't needed, that's why you didn't see me suggest him buying larger injectors.
The post you just made refering to "morons" is also just as wrong as your first post. The information you just posted tells me you aren't as intelligent as you are wanting people to believe.
First off, the EVO has about 38 psi of rail pressure with the stock regulator. Every aftermarket injector our there is flowed at 43-45 psi depending on the manufacturer. So just adding an adjustable regulator to the car for an increase of 5-7 psi of rail pressure is beneficial if you are on the edge of running out of injector. Also, if you have a base rail pressure of 38 and run 22 psi of boost it does give you a rail pressure of 60 psi but that 60 psi is obviously not running the injector at over what they were rated as, as you stated. The additional pressure applied to the injector is to over come the boost pressure in the intake manifold. The actual flow of the injector is still at only 38 psi of pressure. I'm surprised you don't know that..............maybe the moron suggestion you made isn't so far after all.
Also, your little stab at me only running a car for short burst at the drag strip is as stupid as you saying this: "(like at the track only, which I assume is all you do with your car), but for extended periods of time like daily driving the injectors will burn out or worse (like burn out the injector driver in the ecu) like I've seen countless times." A car doesn't run 100% duty cycle when you are daily driving it, you must be highly confused. I can run a GT45 around all day long on a set of 550 cc injectors at 12% duty cycle, daily driving a car with no boost required almost no injector duty cycle at all. The time any car spends at WOT is very short and running it at 100% duty cycle during that time will cause no damage. I've been building cars for 20 years and have never seen any of the failures you've mentioned, ever.
I don't sell part that aren't needed, that's why you didn't see me suggest him buying larger injectors.
Dec 21, 2008, 07:39 PM
#25
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However he has been real busy with work recently. I have been waiting quite a while for him to tune my Aem Ems... ...
Y don't u consolidate some other Evos & check with him if he is free to fly over for another tuning session...
Two thumbs up for the Banana man...
Dec 21, 2008, 09:09 PM
#26
If you go back and read your post you will see how it was misleading to people who are not fully aware of how the fuel system works.
The post you just made refering to "morons" is also just as wrong as your first post. The information you just posted tells me you aren't as intelligent as you are wanting people to believe.
The post you just made refering to "morons" is also just as wrong as your first post. The information you just posted tells me you aren't as intelligent as you are wanting people to believe.
First off, the EVO has about 38 psi of rail pressure with the stock regulator. Every aftermarket injector our there is flowed at 43-45 psi depending on the manufacturer. So just adding an adjustable regulator to the car for an increase of 5-7 psi of rail pressure is beneficial if you are on the edge of running out of injector. Also, if you have a base rail pressure of 38 and run 22 psi of boost it does give you a rail pressure of 60 psi but that 60 psi is obviously not running the injector at over what they were rated as, as you stated. The additional pressure applied to the injector is to over come the boost pressure in the intake manifold. The actual flow of the injector is still at only 38 psi of pressure. I'm surprised you don't know that..............maybe the moron suggestion you made isn't so far after all.
Also, your little stab at me only running a car for short burst at the drag strip is as stupid as you saying this: "(like at the track only, which I assume is all you do with your car), but for extended periods of time like daily driving the injectors will burn out or worse (like burn out the injector driver in the ecu) like I've seen countless times." A car doesn't run 100% duty cycle when you are daily driving it, you must be highly confused. I can run a GT45 around all day long on a set of 550 cc injectors at 12% duty cycle, daily driving a car with no boost required almost no injector duty cycle at all. The time any car spends at WOT is very short and running it at 100% duty cycle during that time will cause no damage. I've been building cars for 20 years and have never seen any of the failures you've mentioned, ever.
Like I said, I have no problem with you, I just don't like you. Have a nice day.
Last edited by Slo_crx1; Dec 22, 2008 at 05:00 AM. Reason: "clarification"
Dec 22, 2008, 09:19 AM
#27
Thanks for the explanation. I have it all figured out now. Let me clarify, you have experience sweeping floors for someone else who worked on different kinds of cars. Then you joined EVOm to give incorrect information on a car you've never made fast. Thank you. I don't like you either but I don't spend my time giving out incorrect information because of it.
As for your friends car, if he got 780 cc injectors he was advised if he did it at the time it would save him upgrading later for whatever his intentions were with the car. One tune is cheaper than two and upgrading an injectors when you are doing a stand alone and intend to do more upgrades later makes perfect sense.
As for your friends car, if he got 780 cc injectors he was advised if he did it at the time it would save him upgrading later for whatever his intentions were with the car. One tune is cheaper than two and upgrading an injectors when you are doing a stand alone and intend to do more upgrades later makes perfect sense.
Last edited by David Buschur; Dec 22, 2008 at 09:38 AM.
Dec 22, 2008, 09:25 AM
#28
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What a good example of a company that just doesnt care and actually calls out people.. Ridiculous time to go back to business school and learn how to run a FAIR business
Dec 22, 2008, 09:53 AM
#29
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Dave, don't even waste your time on the people who won't listen anyway. You gave some good info so they can take it or leave it. We "blind followers" know what is proven and what isn't.
Dec 22, 2008, 10:30 AM
#30
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Thanks for the explanation. I have it all figured out now. Let me clarify, you have experience sweeping floors for someone else who worked on different kinds of cars. Then you joined EVOm to give incorrect information on a car you've never made fast. Thank you. I don't like you either but I don't spend my time giving out incorrect information because of it.
As for your friends car, if he got 780 cc injectors he was advised if he did it at the time it would save him upgrading later for whatever his intentions were with the car. One tune is cheaper than two and upgrading an injectors when you are doing a stand alone and intend to do more upgrades later makes perfect sense.
As for your friends car, if he got 780 cc injectors he was advised if he did it at the time it would save him upgrading later for whatever his intentions were with the car. One tune is cheaper than two and upgrading an injectors when you are doing a stand alone and intend to do more upgrades later makes perfect sense.
