Cam Gears and Cams Questions!?
I'm actually quite surprised at how few evo owners degree their cams when installing them. I think too many people are just lazy and install cams and assume that there are no more benefits to be had. That and most of the people commenting in this thread probably have no empirical evidence to support cam timing one way or another, only biased opinions.
Now, reading from people who have played with cam timing on a dyno or through datalogging reveals a couple interesting facts. Some cam manufacturers, for example, are many degrees off their published specs (Brian Crower for example). Alternatively, some people have installed DSM cam gears thinking they are the same as evo cam gears and seen first hand the effects of 15degrees on their powerband.
Bottom line: spending another hour or two with a degree wheel, piston stop and a runout dial ensures several things.
1. You will know true TDC and how far off your cams are to make the necessary correction
2. You will check your cam manufacturers specs on a cam card (keeps them honest) versus what you're seeing with your own gauge. Another area where members have found large discrepancies between advertised and measured durations and lifts.
3. Most importantly, you'll have piece of mind knowing that your camshafts are operating as the manufacturer intended, with respect to cylinder timing.
I say a degree wheel is not just for the V8 boys. Hell, I'm not sure there's even a "How to" on this site. I know there is on dsm sites, but can't recall seeing a good, in-depth posting on here with pictures. I think it might help an awful lot of people understand something that they can't really visualize. Just my $.02
Now, reading from people who have played with cam timing on a dyno or through datalogging reveals a couple interesting facts. Some cam manufacturers, for example, are many degrees off their published specs (Brian Crower for example). Alternatively, some people have installed DSM cam gears thinking they are the same as evo cam gears and seen first hand the effects of 15degrees on their powerband.
Bottom line: spending another hour or two with a degree wheel, piston stop and a runout dial ensures several things.
1. You will know true TDC and how far off your cams are to make the necessary correction
2. You will check your cam manufacturers specs on a cam card (keeps them honest) versus what you're seeing with your own gauge. Another area where members have found large discrepancies between advertised and measured durations and lifts.
3. Most importantly, you'll have piece of mind knowing that your camshafts are operating as the manufacturer intended, with respect to cylinder timing.
I say a degree wheel is not just for the V8 boys. Hell, I'm not sure there's even a "How to" on this site. I know there is on dsm sites, but can't recall seeing a good, in-depth posting on here with pictures. I think it might help an awful lot of people understand something that they can't really visualize. Just my $.02
I'm actually quite surprised at how few evo owners degree their cams when installing them. I think too many people are just lazy and install cams and assume that there are no more benefits to be had. That and most of the people commenting in this thread probably have no empirical evidence to support cam timing one way or another, only biased opinions.
Now, reading from people who have played with cam timing on a dyno or through datalogging reveals a couple interesting facts. Some cam manufacturers, for example, are many degrees off their published specs (Brian Crower for example). Alternatively, some people have installed DSM cam gears thinking they are the same as evo cam gears and seen first hand the effects of 15degrees on their powerband.
Bottom line: spending another hour or two with a degree wheel, piston stop and a runout dial ensures several things.
1. You will know true TDC and how far off your cams are to make the necessary correction
2. You will check your cam manufacturers specs on a cam card (keeps them honest) versus what you're seeing with your own gauge. Another area where members have found large discrepancies between advertised and measured durations and lifts.
3. Most importantly, you'll have piece of mind knowing that your camshafts are operating as the manufacturer intended, with respect to cylinder timing.
I say a degree wheel is not just for the V8 boys. Hell, I'm not sure there's even a "How to" on this site. I know there is on dsm sites, but can't recall seeing a good, in-depth posting on here with pictures. I think it might help an awful lot of people understand something that they can't really visualize. Just my $.02
Now, reading from people who have played with cam timing on a dyno or through datalogging reveals a couple interesting facts. Some cam manufacturers, for example, are many degrees off their published specs (Brian Crower for example). Alternatively, some people have installed DSM cam gears thinking they are the same as evo cam gears and seen first hand the effects of 15degrees on their powerband.
Bottom line: spending another hour or two with a degree wheel, piston stop and a runout dial ensures several things.
1. You will know true TDC and how far off your cams are to make the necessary correction
2. You will check your cam manufacturers specs on a cam card (keeps them honest) versus what you're seeing with your own gauge. Another area where members have found large discrepancies between advertised and measured durations and lifts.
3. Most importantly, you'll have piece of mind knowing that your camshafts are operating as the manufacturer intended, with respect to cylinder timing.
I say a degree wheel is not just for the V8 boys. Hell, I'm not sure there's even a "How to" on this site. I know there is on dsm sites, but can't recall seeing a good, in-depth posting on here with pictures. I think it might help an awful lot of people understand something that they can't really visualize. Just my $.02
Alot of people have told me not to go with HKS.. But I was thinking 264/270. Does anyone see any problem with this setup? I am looking to make no more than 550whp on a red with a built engine and drivetrain, full intake and exhaust, upgraded valvetrain, and an FP Red. I dont know why some people tell me that this is unreasonable to run those cams
dude, i agree.
no offense to anybody here but, most people on forums are just band-waggoners and they just jump on one and they defend it in any thread they are apart of. When you ask someone what the best CAM is for example, everyone replies with what they are running.
Even though tests have been done and certain cams do not perform as good as others, like Crower 272s vs Kelford 272s, etc. People with Crower cams will still come on the thread and say they are the best cams, when they clearly are not.
My point being is, most people probably have little to no experience with cam-gears in Evos, and they either did not bother getting any or were told not to, or read somewhere its pointless, and they simply just decide that is the standard.
I know less then a lot of people on this forum about cam-gears and the way they work and the benefits they can provide, which the point wasnt to make I am a know it all cause I am FAR from that. The point is people on forums, whether its cars, diet, poker, or anything for that matter, just backup whatever they are using.
I also got a lot of negative feedback on 280/272 setup I ended up ordering (but have not installed) yet every single person I've talked to that has ACTUALLY used that setup, siad they gained power over thier perevious 272/272 setup. I think it is a very similar situation with CamGears. The vast majority of people never took the time to use it without a full-race setup and at that point the results of the cam-gears has almost no effect on the overall power of the engine.
no offense to anybody here but, most people on forums are just band-waggoners and they just jump on one and they defend it in any thread they are apart of. When you ask someone what the best CAM is for example, everyone replies with what they are running.
Even though tests have been done and certain cams do not perform as good as others, like Crower 272s vs Kelford 272s, etc. People with Crower cams will still come on the thread and say they are the best cams, when they clearly are not.
My point being is, most people probably have little to no experience with cam-gears in Evos, and they either did not bother getting any or were told not to, or read somewhere its pointless, and they simply just decide that is the standard.
I know less then a lot of people on this forum about cam-gears and the way they work and the benefits they can provide, which the point wasnt to make I am a know it all cause I am FAR from that. The point is people on forums, whether its cars, diet, poker, or anything for that matter, just backup whatever they are using.
I also got a lot of negative feedback on 280/272 setup I ended up ordering (but have not installed) yet every single person I've talked to that has ACTUALLY used that setup, siad they gained power over thier perevious 272/272 setup. I think it is a very similar situation with CamGears. The vast majority of people never took the time to use it without a full-race setup and at that point the results of the cam-gears has almost no effect on the overall power of the engine.
Alot of people have told me not to go with HKS.. But I was thinking 264/270. Does anyone see any problem with this setup? I am looking to make no more than 550whp on a red with a built engine and drivetrain, full intake and exhaust, upgraded valvetrain, and an FP Red. I dont know why some people tell me that this is unreasonable to run those cams
Run the hks 272s on the new green and made 390 awhp on a mustang dyno last week with a conservative tune. Putting on a little more aggressive tune and installing an E85 gauge and switching to corn fuel, and also repairing a boost leak I had on the previous run. I have no complaints with the 272 cams so far, sound great and perform just fine at idle. Spool up on the green is already amazing, so not sure as to how the 272 helped, but I have nothing but good things to say about them. I just went a little conservative with the 272s because this is my DD and didnt want any drivability issues.
My experience with cam gears is in the Honda world, as that's what I started with. I can tell you by first hand experience that cam gears can make a world of a difference. I've seen 20whp gains on stock engine cars just from tuning stock cams.
On my own personal car (1.6 honda), after doing a major turbo build with a heavily ported head and comp 272's and adjustable cam gears. with the cam gears set to a factory position it wouldn't even rev to my desired rpm, not to mention it was way down on power. After adjusting cam gears I saw no negative results on the driveability or power throughout the curve. With every adjustment torque and hp improved (less of a gain with every * of adjustment until no gains were seen). End result 318whp on 10psi out of a 1.6L.
If you're going through the trouble of tuning fuel and timing, why not valve timing as well?
Maybe Evo's are entirely different than Honda's, but maybe not. I would say that it is definitely beneficial to use cam gears I almost guarantee that you will find some extra power.
On my own personal car (1.6 honda), after doing a major turbo build with a heavily ported head and comp 272's and adjustable cam gears. with the cam gears set to a factory position it wouldn't even rev to my desired rpm, not to mention it was way down on power. After adjusting cam gears I saw no negative results on the driveability or power throughout the curve. With every adjustment torque and hp improved (less of a gain with every * of adjustment until no gains were seen). End result 318whp on 10psi out of a 1.6L.
If you're going through the trouble of tuning fuel and timing, why not valve timing as well?
Maybe Evo's are entirely different than Honda's, but maybe not. I would say that it is definitely beneficial to use cam gears I almost guarantee that you will find some extra power.
Last edited by JorgeYaHeard; Oct 8, 2009 at 12:58 PM.
Check out this test AMS did.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...s+evo+cam+test
Plenty of information on cams and how cam gears can be used to dial your cams to the manufacturers specifications or for your specific needs.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...s+evo+cam+test
Plenty of information on cams and how cam gears can be used to dial your cams to the manufacturers specifications or for your specific needs.
