Well, it matters for me, the owner, because if it blows up I'm gonna ask why.

Will you have the answer?

 

your missing the point meisnerboy... He doesnt car about the why he just works around it. Believe me AL is so so so safe, safty is probably number one on his list. You car will not blow up lol. Have you seen any problems with dynoflash on the threads? I DONT THINK SO.

 

Ummm... no I'm not.

When you go to to a doctor you ask him WHY am I sick?
If your tv breaks you may ask an electrical engineer: WHY?
When the Space Shuttle blew up everyone asked NASA: WHY?
When you take your car into a mechanic you ask WHY wont it run?

A car is NOT a mystical device. It is a scientific one. It obeys the laws of science. There are SPECIFIC SCIENTIFIC reasons why one evo will dyno higher than another and it is incumbent on Al (or any tuner) to understand this as part of their tuning.

Al, this is not subjective like the Law which you know so well. In a law case you may be allowed to tell a client that you don’t know why they lost (you didn't argue well, the judge was biased, the jury was biased, you weren't prepared, on and on...) but, sorry, not here.

 

This is what i think... I think all tuners should get together one day and hold a dynoday competition! Same car! use the same car one company can dyno that car and see what HP numbers they pull along with safty measures. Then maybe run it down a track? Then reflash the ECU back to stock and have the next guy tune it. and etc. After everyone does the tunes at the END someone will show which company Has the best outcome. Why dont we set one of these days up? Then we can stop this BS and the companies can put the money where their mouth is.

 

There are mechanical variances that each evo will suffer. These are called tolerance numbers. Nothing is perfect, but very very similar. When a production car is being made there are tolerances that vary from car to car. Take any Production car, and start to ask your self why do some break down and the others are fine? Why do some evo members KILL their clutch? Its not that hard to understand. First thing first the driver, second the tolerances of the factory that are set on each part. Nothing will come out perfectly the same. With the topics you are talking about like the space shuttle those are human error and are not production vehicle but i understand your point, but we are talking about cars.

thanks

 

The gentleman above is asking me to elaborate on the REASONS why there is a significant car to car variance on Evos

We have some very good ideas why and there are mutiple reasons why

We choose not to disclose the results of our very expensive dyno time research on a public forum for obvious reasons

For the sake of this debate - all that matters is that Works says there are no significant car to car variations - and we say that there are - the reason(s) for such variations are not relevant to the determination of the initial issue which is - "ARE THERE SIGNIFICANT CAR TO CAR VARIATIONS OR IS THE VARIATION ONLY ATRIBUTABLE TO DYNO TESTING AND FUEL ERRORS?"


Its my opinion that anyone with a rational, open objective mind who has been following this subject on the forums since the US Evo's 1st arrived will agree that the data and facts all tend to clearly establish a substantial car to car variance

What is most humorous is how initially Vishnu reported serious concerns with car to car variance and also reported having contacts with on that subject. Later, somehow it seems that the issue suddenly disappeared

I suggest that the curious reader go back and do a search to read the old threads on this subject

 

Obvious? To whom? Not to me. Aren't you the one who always talks about the full disclosure of your methods? Don't you always brag about showing your a/f plots on your dyno graphs?

Who are you trying to hide this info from?
Shiv? I am quite sure he is up to speed on this issue. After all, he is the one who taught us the IAM trick on the WRX.

From us? What would we do with this information that would draw from your business? In fact, like Shiv and his ignition advance trick, you would gain huge sums of respect.

Better think this issue again, Mr. Freedman.

 

Oh, there are a lot of things far more humorous than that on the forum these days....

shiv

 

We fully disclose our methods, a/f ratios and before and after dyno results

We also offer our clinets a unconditional full satisfaction guarantee of your money back and a flash back to stock

I am not hiding info from anyone

I just see no reason to provide a free education on Evos to my competition. Let them figure it all out for themselves.

Our products work and its verified by a dyno sheet and the customer feed back as well as my own personal test operation of each vehicle. That is all a potential client of ours needs to know.

You are not a potential clinet anyway you are an antagonist trying to spew up negative interaction.

Just as the OEM auto manufactureres do not release the results of the extensive R & D testing and research they regularly conduct - we choose not to release all the R & D info which we have developed. Rest assured we know the reason for the car to car variations - actually reasons - there are several.

The point of this thread was a debate on wether or not the variations even exist or as Work's claims it is merely a matter of dyno testing errors and fuel.

 

Not anymore... that's for sure.

EDIT: By the way, Al, I think you'll find there's a big difference between being an ******* who trolls NASOIC and brags about their evo times while putting down "SLOWbarus" and being an ******* who is a vendor.

The ******* who trolls is just an *******.

The ******* who is also a vendor doesn't sell ****.

 

Well, Well, another thread on bashing the Al brotha. Well on the day i went to the dyno at proven there was quite a little stir!
You see out of the many evo's there some didnt even come close to the STOCK baseline numbers i ran. 263 WHP baseline and left with 287 WHP. Completely bone stock.
But the interesting thing have seen with this flash from AL is the gains are anywhere between 20-25 hp after the flash.
This isnt a figment of my or anyones imagination.
You see i have a business where i do custom turbo installs.
Iwent to see Al and he did nothing the extraordinary then just reflash my ecu with specs from his own project.
But the difference here is that he spent time with me and the rest of his customers. After going thru several different tunes he was happy with, he got me back on the road happy.
This is customer service. He has taken himself from enthusiast to tuner in a matter of months. Many people like to bash others becausethey feel that they are threatened by others who may not have the same contacts, referencesor expertise in years as the other.
I have learned to get around that.
I go by character. For me and many others Al has been completely honest and forth coming in his knowledge.
Al keep up the good work and good luck in the future.

 

Theoretically, it is possible to explicate in great detail why one car makes more power than another. In practice however, it's almost impossible without tons of time and money. First you'd have to make sure both cars are exactly in the same state of tune and in order to find out exactly why the power output differs, you'd have to tear down and carefully measure each engine and compare such measurements.
Obviously, this is way to much work and not worth it to the majority of people. What is important is that such differences do exist. Shiv noticed this and posted about it a long time ago. What is even more important is that these differences must be taken into account when re-tuning the maps for fuel, ignition, boost, etc.
It's of no importance whether a particular car has a slightly different configuration of the combustion chamber or that the tolerance stack up ended up giving one a more balanced engine or viceversa. Unless the tuner is going to completely re-build and blueprint the engine, what's important is that each car be tuned to its particular best state. It seems to me that Al has been working very hard and assidiously to learn and perfect the art of tuning EVOs. I see nothing wrong with his approach and plenty of good sense in the reasoning behind the Dynoflash modification.

 

You suck!! My dyno run with AEM Intake and Buschur muffler delete pipe was 241hp. After the reflash it is 265hp!! perfworks

I do agree with you on the fact that Al is a nice guy and provides great customer service when you are up there...

 

I had you pegged for the negative SLOWbaRU driving slow poke that U R !

I don't like SLOWbaRU's they are too slow !!!!!!!

 

Thanks ! And i hope you are comming to the big evo meet we have at Pruven this sat !