Need help with upgrading turbo
What about upgrading later??? The PTE turbos are about 1k less than the Black all together. The black is more streetable but it will not make more turbo than a 6262, hta86 or 82. I don't care what he has but IF he wants to upgrade he can, how big can you go with stock frame turbos??? Like one of the many other treads that have been put up here, here is a quote from a vendor on here and his opinion about this question....
The question really comes down to do you have supporting mods? If you don't have an upgraded downpipe, o2 housing, lower pipe, possible manifold, intake, etc. The black is going to turn out to be an expensive upgrade. Since your an 8, you will also need to buy the 9 install kit which costs another $200-$250.00 depending on the options.
After adding the costs up you are pretty close to a turbo kit. I think the turbo kit is a better option as far as upgrades go. The turbo kit gives you the ability to make the same power at lower boost levels. The problem with the stock frame turbo is you have to run 30-40 psi to make the power you see posted by some of the vendors. You will also need to have a built motor.
The difference between a stock frame turbo and T3 frame turbo is night and day difference on the top end. The T3 frame turbo will pull all the way past red line where the stock frame will make peak power and start to taper towards the end.
It's all about goals though, if your looking for a mild setup the bolt on may get you where you need to be, but if you want flexibility I think we can build you a T3 kit that fits your needs
Remember the FP bolt on turbos are all Journal bearing, so when comparing it to a turbo kit make sure it's journal bearing vs journal bearing My money is on the PT5857 turbo kit in journal bearing form.
Any other questions, let me know!
thanks,
Michael
The question really comes down to do you have supporting mods? If you don't have an upgraded downpipe, o2 housing, lower pipe, possible manifold, intake, etc. The black is going to turn out to be an expensive upgrade. Since your an 8, you will also need to buy the 9 install kit which costs another $200-$250.00 depending on the options.
After adding the costs up you are pretty close to a turbo kit. I think the turbo kit is a better option as far as upgrades go. The turbo kit gives you the ability to make the same power at lower boost levels. The problem with the stock frame turbo is you have to run 30-40 psi to make the power you see posted by some of the vendors. You will also need to have a built motor.
The difference between a stock frame turbo and T3 frame turbo is night and day difference on the top end. The T3 frame turbo will pull all the way past red line where the stock frame will make peak power and start to taper towards the end.
It's all about goals though, if your looking for a mild setup the bolt on may get you where you need to be, but if you want flexibility I think we can build you a T3 kit that fits your needs
Remember the FP bolt on turbos are all Journal bearing, so when comparing it to a turbo kit make sure it's journal bearing vs journal bearing My money is on the PT5857 turbo kit in journal bearing form.
Any other questions, let me know!
thanks,
Michael
Also, who's to say FP or somebody else won't make a stock frame turbo larger than a Black? With the way Robert at FP is, i wouldn't doubt if another one is on the way. I realize the stock frame does have it's obvious limits.
I still stand behind my educated answer. FP Black is the perfect streetable turbo. 500whp on pump gas is nothing to sneeze at. Could you make more? Of course.... But, the question remains, does the OP need more? Probably not.
p.s. relying on what a vendor says is kind of a conflict of interest.
Last edited by iTune; Apr 26, 2010 at 10:05 PM.
Currently, the largest stock frame turbo is a FP Black. You're correct, but what you are not taking into consideration is the OP's intended use and power levels! Who said he will ever have the need for 700WHP? If the guy currently has a PTE T3/T4, i doubt he's looking to make anywhere near that number. Most people do not want or need 700whp, so comparing turbos in that range are useless. Also, it's not all about peak power man. Most 700whp evo's are not that much fun to drive on the street, making them almost useless. Not everybody has the deep pockets it takes to build and upkeep a setup like that.
Also, who's to say FP or somebody else won't make a stock frame turbo larger than a Black? With the way Robert at FP is, i wouldn't doubt if another one is on the way. I realize the stock frame does have it's obvious limits.
I still stand behind my educated answer. FP Black is the perfect streetable turbo. 500whp on pump gas is nothing to sneeze at. Could you make more? Of course.... But, the question remains, does the OP need more? Probably not.
p.s. relying on what a vendor says is kind of a conflict of interest.
Also, who's to say FP or somebody else won't make a stock frame turbo larger than a Black? With the way Robert at FP is, i wouldn't doubt if another one is on the way. I realize the stock frame does have it's obvious limits.
I still stand behind my educated answer. FP Black is the perfect streetable turbo. 500whp on pump gas is nothing to sneeze at. Could you make more? Of course.... But, the question remains, does the OP need more? Probably not.
p.s. relying on what a vendor says is kind of a conflict of interest.
I would go out on a limb and say he will not make 500awhp with 5200' altitude and 91octane....
I think about the future, do it right do it once. I have bought a ix turbo, went to a red and now when it is up and running I am going to go to a bigger t3... I should've got the t3 and not regreted it later.
It isn't what one vendor says either, there are many that feel that way. You can make the same power with any number of t3 turbo but the lag will be more. There are a few turbos coming out that might change that but I believe the black will still out spool them.
The black is a bad *** turbo no matter how you look at it
What about upgrading later??? The PTE turbos are about 1k less than the Black all together. The black is more streetable but it will not make more power than a 6262, hta86 or 82. I don't care what he has but IF he wants to upgrade he can, how big can you go with stock frame turbos??? Like one of the many other treads that have been put up here, here is a quote from a vendor on here and his opinion about this question....
The question really comes down to do you have supporting mods? If you don't have an upgraded downpipe, o2 housing, lower pipe, possible manifold, intake, etc. The black is going to turn out to be an expensive upgrade. Since your an 8, you will also need to buy the 9 install kit which costs another $200-$250.00 depending on the options.
After adding the costs up you are pretty close to a turbo kit. I think the turbo kit is a better option as far as upgrades go. The turbo kit gives you the ability to make the same power at lower boost levels. The problem with the stock frame turbo is you have to run 30-40 psi to make the power you see posted by some of the vendors. You will also need to have a built motor.
The difference between a stock frame turbo and T3 frame turbo is night and day difference on the top end. The T3 frame turbo will pull all the way past red line where the stock frame will make peak power and start to taper towards the end.
It's all about goals though, if your looking for a mild setup the bolt on may get you where you need to be, but if you want flexibility I think we can build you a T3 kit that fits your needs
Remember the FP bolt on turbos are all Journal bearing, so when comparing it to a turbo kit make sure it's journal bearing vs journal bearing My money is on the PT5857 turbo kit in journal bearing form.
Any other questions, let me know!
thanks,
Michael
....Plus he is in Denver and the air isn't that great up here and a stock framed turbo will fall off and won't be as effecient up here.
I get it that you like the stock framed turbos, a lot of people have success with them, I thought about it and I have a Red. I say buy a better turbo and if he has all of those parts he should go to Tobz and have him finish it up for him... And he wasn't asking if he should buy a black or compare this to that he wanted to know how to "finish" upgrading the kit that he has started piecing together already...
The question really comes down to do you have supporting mods? If you don't have an upgraded downpipe, o2 housing, lower pipe, possible manifold, intake, etc. The black is going to turn out to be an expensive upgrade. Since your an 8, you will also need to buy the 9 install kit which costs another $200-$250.00 depending on the options.
After adding the costs up you are pretty close to a turbo kit. I think the turbo kit is a better option as far as upgrades go. The turbo kit gives you the ability to make the same power at lower boost levels. The problem with the stock frame turbo is you have to run 30-40 psi to make the power you see posted by some of the vendors. You will also need to have a built motor.
The difference between a stock frame turbo and T3 frame turbo is night and day difference on the top end. The T3 frame turbo will pull all the way past red line where the stock frame will make peak power and start to taper towards the end.
It's all about goals though, if your looking for a mild setup the bolt on may get you where you need to be, but if you want flexibility I think we can build you a T3 kit that fits your needs
Remember the FP bolt on turbos are all Journal bearing, so when comparing it to a turbo kit make sure it's journal bearing vs journal bearing My money is on the PT5857 turbo kit in journal bearing form.
Any other questions, let me know!
thanks,
Michael
....Plus he is in Denver and the air isn't that great up here and a stock framed turbo will fall off and won't be as effecient up here.
I get it that you like the stock framed turbos, a lot of people have success with them, I thought about it and I have a Red. I say buy a better turbo and if he has all of those parts he should go to Tobz and have him finish it up for him... And he wasn't asking if he should buy a black or compare this to that he wanted to know how to "finish" upgrading the kit that he has started piecing together already...
OP: I would strongly suggest looking into the Black. It is an amazing turbo and you will be 100% happy. Much more than if you kept the old t3/t4. You won't be happy after you try and put everything together to make it work.
Like Sparky said, sell everything! Grab a stock turbo for a few hundred and upgrade to a black for $1,000. You can't go wrong and Robert at FP is an amazing guy and will take care of you.
Mikey
Wow. First off you are about as intelligent as my 1yr old daughter! I like how you state that PTE turbos are great! THEY ARE A POS! Second, a 5857 is a POS just like all the others. A FP Red spools 400rpms sooner and makes more peak power. Third, the FP Black doesn't have taper problems. And my list of **** that I can correct you on keeps getting longer. You should prob stop while you are ahead, o wait, you aren't.
OP: I would strongly suggest looking into the Black. It is an amazing turbo and you will be 100% happy. Much more than if you kept the old t3/t4. You won't be happy after you try and put everything together to make it work.
Like Sparky said, sell everything! Grab a stock turbo for a few hundred and upgrade to a black for $1,000. You can't go wrong and Robert at FP is an amazing guy and will take care of you.
Mikey
OP: I would strongly suggest looking into the Black. It is an amazing turbo and you will be 100% happy. Much more than if you kept the old t3/t4. You won't be happy after you try and put everything together to make it work.
Like Sparky said, sell everything! Grab a stock turbo for a few hundred and upgrade to a black for $1,000. You can't go wrong and Robert at FP is an amazing guy and will take care of you.
Mikey
Next, to get a black he would need the ix kit, 250, 400ish for the ix turbo, 1000 for the black, 100 for the oil line which doesn't come withan upgrade, at least not with my red. Then to port the black, the intake manifold and the o2 house he is nearly at the cost of a turbo kit at that point... Think before you talk
If you daughter is as intelligent as me, you will be very proud of her. The only bad thing that I didn't mention was the fact that the t3/t4 sucks just like the turbonetics that I ran in my civic si years ago. I was thinking down the lines of getting a better turbo. How much do you think he could get for a pos turbo? 300-400 bucks? So 1000 out of pocket for a black or hta86 either way?
Thanks for commenting "mikey"
I just started laughing when I realized that you didn't read this part, I will put it in bold for you
here is a quote from a vendor on here and his opinion about this question....
The question really comes down to do you have supporting mods? If you don't have an upgraded downpipe, o2 housing, lower pipe, possible manifold, intake, etc. The black is going to turn out to be an expensive upgrade. Since your an 8, you will also need to buy the 9 install kit which costs another $200-$250.00 depending on the options.
After adding the costs up you are pretty close to a turbo kit. I think the turbo kit is a better option as far as upgrades go. The turbo kit gives you the ability to make the same power at lower boost levels. The problem with the stock frame turbo is you have to run 30-40 psi to make the power you see posted by some of the vendors. You will also need to have a built motor.
The difference between a stock frame turbo and T3 frame turbo is night and day difference on the top end. The T3 frame turbo will pull all the way past red line where the stock frame will make peak power and start to taper towards the end.
It's all about goals though, if your looking for a mild setup the bolt on may get you where you need to be, but if you want flexibility I think we can build you a T3 kit that fits your needs
Remember the FP bolt on turbos are all Journal bearing, so when comparing it to a turbo kit make sure it's journal bearing vs journal bearing My money is on the PT5857 turbo kit in journal bearing form.
Any other questions, let me know!
thanks,
Michael
Thanks for making my night a whole lot more enjoyable after getting back from the hospital seeing a family member lol.. PS that is Michael for ETS also...
I also put in a bold a part I think you should clairify, the evo ix turbo 400, the black 1000, the ix kit 250, the o2 housing 100-500 if you get a dump, different intake or a coupler to go from a 64mm to 80mm, port the black 100+, port the exhaust manifold 100+, the oil line 100, so that is 2200 on the low end, 2500 on the high end, right there... 1000-1500 to get a good t3 turbo and have more potential... Thanks again!!!
Last edited by jasnm21; Apr 27, 2010 at 12:57 AM.
Thanks for the responses. Basically what I gather is that I need to just sell these parts and start off fresh. My Evo is not my daily driver but I would not modify it to where it is only good to drive when I feel the need to race. I would be happy getting it up to about 600 Hp, but would love to see it get to around 800HP. If getting it to that point means that it's not a fun street car, then I would rather drive it around 600HP.
it all depends on your final goals and what you want to use the car for and ofcourse your budget. journal bearings i believe are more reliable when properly oiled compared to bb. just check the turbo seirra sierra tt car is using. it is a modified garrett with a journal bearing. if you are planning on going over 500hp then you should prepare yourself for a built motor. i'd say check the dyno threads on hear and see what you like then try to match the part that they have. the big vendors on here have tested just about every combination it would also be wise to give them a call and talk to them about your goals, time frame, budget and see what they would suggest.
Thanks for the responses. Basically what I gather is that I need to just sell these parts and start off fresh. My Evo is not my daily driver but I would not modify it to where it is only good to drive when I feel the need to race. I would be happy getting it up to about 600 Hp, but would love to see it get to around 800HP. If getting it to that point means that it's not a fun street car, then I would rather drive it around 600HP.
I wouldn't start over, depending on the manifold that you currently have, I would sell that turbo and go big. If it isn't a DD then you won't have to deal with the traffic on i25 during rush hour.
If dambikeracer can verify where his turbo, fp red, spools that would be great but he also has MIVEC and he can alter the cam timing and make it spool faster than we can with our 8s. One thing about 800awhp is things break, I would be ok with 700ish at any altitdue. These are things I have thought about and researched more than anyone.
One last thing to the post above mine, HP doesn't break the rods, torque does and a t3 turbo will give LESS torque than any of the stock framed turbos based on spool alone. At least give accurate information if you give information... I wish someone would have posted this 4 years ago when I first got my Evo... But yes, building the block would help a bunch but not necessary until you push the turbo hard. Call tobz at 303-489-4455.
Last edited by jasnm21; Apr 27, 2010 at 07:55 AM.
What I was thinking is that I should sell that Precision turbo, wastegate, and Manifold, and just get a better turbo kit. I would need to save for this, so for the time being maximize the stock turbo for now. Thanks for letting me know all this information... I was going to have someone install the Precision this week...
What I was thinking is that I should sell that Precision turbo, wastegate, and Manifold, and just get a better turbo kit. I would need to save for this, so for the time being maximize the stock turbo for now. Thanks for letting me know all this information... I was going to have someone install the Precision this week...
PS: don't try to sell that stuff on here, 80% of the Evo population is too smart to buy an old turbo. Sell it on ebay or Craigslist because some honda fan will think it is the greatest turbo out there and pay more than anyone here would.
Last edited by jasnm21; Apr 27, 2010 at 08:15 AM.
Sorry this has turned into a **** storm. Few things...
1. The FP Black comes with the upgraded oil lines, no extra fee
2. If your stock turbo spools @ 4000rpm at 5200', can you imagine how long it will take a t3 frame turbo to spool? My God, you'd have to run 9,000 plus rpm to have a useful power band and youd better have built the motor correctly with the proper rod/stroke ratio to be able to rev that high, not to mention have the valvetrain for it.
3. The FP Black will out spool all those turbos and will still make great peak power.
1. The FP Black comes with the upgraded oil lines, no extra fee
2. If your stock turbo spools @ 4000rpm at 5200', can you imagine how long it will take a t3 frame turbo to spool? My God, you'd have to run 9,000 plus rpm to have a useful power band and youd better have built the motor correctly with the proper rod/stroke ratio to be able to rev that high, not to mention have the valvetrain for it.
3. The FP Black will out spool all those turbos and will still make great peak power.
Now you are at a crossroad... If you plan on maximizing the stock turbo you are going to need to port the manifold, buy an o2 housing and other odds and ends but if you plan on going bigger later you will waste money doing this lol. Sorry but I would hate for someone to spend money if they didn't need to. I say save your pennies and build it right the first time. Call either Buschur Racing, AWDmotorsports or English Racing, I don't buy from them but they have a great reputation, or the many other good companies out there and buy a full kit. The stock viii turbo falls on its face hard up here, around 6k, and to buy everything and then get it tuned would be a huge waste of time and money.
PS: don't try to sell that stuff on here, 80% of the Evo population is too smart to buy an old turbo. Sell it on ebay or Craigslist because some honda fan will think it is the greatest turbo out there and pay more than anyone here would.
PS: don't try to sell that stuff on here, 80% of the Evo population is too smart to buy an old turbo. Sell it on ebay or Craigslist because some honda fan will think it is the greatest turbo out there and pay more than anyone here would.
Sorry this has turned into a **** storm. Few things...
1. The FP Black comes with the upgraded oil lines, no extra fee
2. If your stock turbo spools @ 4000rpm at 5200', can you imagine how long it will take a t3 frame turbo to spool? My God, you'd have to run 9,000 plus rpm to have a useful power band and youd better have built the motor correctly with the proper rod/stroke ratio to be able to rev that high, not to mention have the valvetrain for it.
3. The FP Black will out spool all those turbos and will still make great peak power.
1. The FP Black comes with the upgraded oil lines, no extra fee
2. If your stock turbo spools @ 4000rpm at 5200', can you imagine how long it will take a t3 frame turbo to spool? My God, you'd have to run 9,000 plus rpm to have a useful power band and youd better have built the motor correctly with the proper rod/stroke ratio to be able to rev that high, not to mention have the valvetrain for it.
3. The FP Black will out spool all those turbos and will still make great peak power.
I will say it again, I understand that you like the stock frame turbos, they are great but there are a lot of factors when building a car at ALTITUDE and not in jacksonville, FL. A larger turbo will be more efficent than a stock framed one up here. One guy in ABQ has a gt40 and very little complaints, lag is a down shift away... There are plenty of gt35 Evos in Abq, NM, where I unfortunately had to move back to, and we vary from 5000'-6100' depending on what part of town you are at... They have little complains also but the big hp ones are the cheap ones and didn't do it right the first time and break.
One last thing, if you are wanting 600awhp to beat everyone in town you won't need 600awhp. When I was up there the racing scene isn't huge and between 400-550 will beat 90% or more of cars and bikes there. Damnbikeracer could easily do this and he is at roughly 410hp uncorrected and with the 15% they added is at 450awhp. There is always a big debate about correction factors and I personally don't like them.
When I was in Denver a Red would have been enough, in Abq there is low 10 second and 9 second cars driving around and racing for money. That is why I am chosing to go big and never think about it again. So again, if you are going to want to beat most cars/bikes a Red or Black can and will do this, until you run into dambikeracer with his new setup. If you are hung up on a hp number you will be disappointed BEFORE the correction factor, but I don't think you will be disappointed with the way the car feels and the street manners.
When I was in Denver a Red would have been enough, in Abq there is low 10 second and 9 second cars driving around and racing for money. That is why I am chosing to go big and never think about it again. So again, if you are going to want to beat most cars/bikes a Red or Black can and will do this, until you run into dambikeracer with his new setup. If you are hung up on a hp number you will be disappointed BEFORE the correction factor, but I don't think you will be disappointed with the way the car feels and the street manners.
One last thing, if you are wanting 600awhp to beat everyone in town you won't need 600awhp. When I was up there the racing scene isn't huge and between 400-550 will beat 90% or more of cars and bikes there. Damnbikeracer could easily do this and he is at roughly 410hp uncorrected and with the 15% they added is at 450awhp. There is always a big debate about correction factors and I personally don't like them.
When I was in Denver a Red would have been enough, in Abq there is low 10 second and 9 second cars driving around and racing for money. That is why I am chosing to go big and never think about it again. So again, if you are going to want to beat most cars/bikes a Red or Black can and will do this, until you run into dambikeracer with his new setup. If you are hung up on a hp number you will be disappointed BEFORE the correction factor, but I don't think you will be disappointed with the way the car feels and the street manners.
When I was in Denver a Red would have been enough, in Abq there is low 10 second and 9 second cars driving around and racing for money. That is why I am chosing to go big and never think about it again. So again, if you are going to want to beat most cars/bikes a Red or Black can and will do this, until you run into dambikeracer with his new setup. If you are hung up on a hp number you will be disappointed BEFORE the correction factor, but I don't think you will be disappointed with the way the car feels and the street manners.
What's your opinion about adding kelfords 272 and porting the stock mani?
PTE turbos are pieces of ****. I love Evom
Crap like that makes me wonder why I even bother to read on this site anymore. Never anything useful just people talking **** on anything different then what they run.
Unbelievable
My 61mmBB has been flawless for the past year and a half.
Though I do agree that the Black is a beast and the only stock framed turbo I'd ever consider. Never been in a Black equipped car yet but I frigging hate boost taper of the rest from my experience
Crap like that makes me wonder why I even bother to read on this site anymore. Never anything useful just people talking **** on anything different then what they run.
Unbelievable
My 61mmBB has been flawless for the past year and a half.
Though I do agree that the Black is a beast and the only stock framed turbo I'd ever consider. Never been in a Black equipped car yet but I frigging hate boost taper of the rest from my experience
