So mike if you want up to 650 whp use the FP Black, which is twin scroll, and if you want big power over 800 whp use a T4 Divided Big turbo, but for 650-800whp single scroll is the best way to do it?

Everybody seems to be in agreement that these stock frame turbos spool very quick and make a lot of power, and the only way to make monster power is a twin scroll t4, what am I missing...

Somehow that doesn't make sense!

Scorke

I would think you would have something to gain though, as if one system does out perform the other, I would think you would leverage that information to favor one system over the other to your customers allowing you to build more powerful cars.

I don't mean to draw any question about your integrity though and believe you would perform an unbiased test. I'm just pointing out that anybody that tests this is going to end up with a mind set that will end up promoting one product over the other.

Scorke, I personally see benefits to the smaller single scroll stuff as it is lighter and more simple without really giving up much on response. Smaller turbos are pretty responsive regardless of TS vs SS. I also don't think internal wastegates are worth a ****, so these internal wastegate based TS setups don't mean much to me. The internal gates usually have a lot of problem with boost spike or slow response and then taper or creep. An external setup offers exceptional response and rock solid boost control.

What fuel and boost level was that run done on Mike - I'm guessing E85 and ~33-35psi...? Was this also one of those FWD Facing Turbo Kits with no A/C...? What turbine housing was that car on, was it a .63...? Looks like it the way the trq in falling... Was this car an EVO8 (like my car) or an EVO9 w/MIVEC? Certainly I think we'll all come to find out that your attempt to compare dyno charts for two completely different cars and setups under totally different conditions is pointless...

Here's my ~650whp 93 octane pump gas map @ ~26psi and to answer your question NO, it doesn't have the same power band...



As I stated in the other thread, it was 95 degrees ambient outside yesterday when we made that run and the AMS Standard Intercooler was not up to the task... The AIT where 95 degrees at the start of that run and 145 degrees at the end of the run - certainly anyone with half a peanut knows that was hurting power... No worries, we're putting on a larger intercooler in the coming weeks and we'll get it back on the dyno.

As you've been told several times already, twinscroll is superior to single scroll when it comes to drive-ability and transient response...

Mike, here's another one of your 6262 on the same fuel (Q16) but I believe this car is an EVO9 w/MIVEC on a 2.0 @ 37psi...

Chadrpm.jpg?t=1255808391

EVO8 Q16 on 2.3 @ 33psi TS40R

i have a full race twin scroll t4 manifold and a twin scroll 4088R i can lend out for testing. if someone just had a t4 single scroll full race manifold and single scroll 4088R turbine housing we would be in business.

+130 lb/ft of torque is quite a bit.

Yes, Mike doesn't want to compare TRQ

Now let's compare the boost threshold #'s:
200whp TS40R 4050rpms
200whp 6262 4700rpms

300whp TS40R 4725rpms
300whp 6262 5200rpms

400whp TS40R 5000rpms
400whp 6262 5600rpms

500whp TS40R 5250rpms
500whp 6262 5900rpms

600whp TS40R 5500rpms
600whp 6262 6400rpms

700whp TS40R 6000rpms
673whp 6262 7100rpms

Something isn't right here. Why doesn't the HP and TQ cross at 5252? It is a mathematical calculation and they must cross at 5252 RPM. Good discussion though.

Josh

Now that is data that I can digest! LOL (it's dinner time! Nom, Nom, Nom!)

Josh

Go on...

That probably is due to the scaling on the graph

Note the left hand side peaks 600ft/lbs and the right hand side peaks 650 hp.

It's just the scaling of the graph...

Folks:

We can't realistically compare engines of different displacement.

We can't realistically compare different turbos.

We can't realistically compare factory placement manifolds with FF stuff.

Etc.


There are just too many differences. Trying to draw comparisons between different hardware just doesn't work.

2004 Subaru 777 04 STi 06-17-2009 05:00 pm
EFI Logics
ATP 35R Stock fit turbo, EFI Logics Custom Front mount, APS 3.5 inch exhaust, DW 900cc Injectors, Custom Swirl pot with EFI Logics fuel system, Invidia EL Header, Cosworth 272 Cams, tune with Cobb Accessport - ST2 Class restricted power 20psi only

RPM	HP	Torque	AFR	Boost
2850	76.00	141.00	12.70	1.70
2900	83.00	150.00	12.30	2.20
2950	89.00	159.00	11.70	2.80
3000	95.00	167.00	11.40	3.30
3050	100.00	174.00	11.20	3.90
3100	106.00	180.00	11.10	4.50
3150	111.00	186.00	11.10	5.10
3200	117.00	192.00	11.10	5.70
3250	123.00	199.00	11.10	6.20
3300	129.00	205.00	11.10	6.80
3350	134.00	212.00	11.20	7.40
3400	140.00	218.00	11.30	8.00
3450	147.00	224.00	11.40	8.50
3500	153.00	231.00	11.40	9.10
3550	160.00	238.00	11.40	9.70
3600	167.00	245.00	11.40	10.30
3650	175.00	253.00	11.40	10.90
3700	183.00	261.00	11.30	11.50
3750	192.00	270.00	11.30	12.20
3800	200.00	277.00	11.20	12.90
3850	207.00	284.00	11.20	13.60
3900	215.00	292.00	11.20	14.30
3950	224.00	299.00	11.10	15.00
4000	231.00	305.00	11.10	15.70
4050	239.00	312.00	11.00	16.40
4100	248.00	320.00	11.00	17.10
4150	260.00	331.00	10.90	17.70
4200	272.00	341.00	10.90	18.30
4250	282.00	350.00	10.90	18.80
4300	292.00	358.00	10.90	19.20
4350	301.00	366.00	10.90	19.60
4400	310.00	373.00	10.90	20.00
4450	319.00	379.00	11.00	20.30
4500	326.00	384.00	11.00	20.50
4550	331.00	385.00	11.00	20.70
4600	336.00	386.00	11.10	20.90
4650	341.00	388.00	11.10	21.00
4700	345.00	388.00	11.10	21.20
4750	349.00	388.00	11.20	21.30
4800	353.00	389.00	11.20	21.30
4850	357.00	389.00	11.20	21.40
4900	361.00	389.00	11.30	21.50
4950	364.00	389.00	11.30	21.50
5000	367.00	388.00	11.30	21.60
5050	371.00	388.00	11.30	21.60
5100	374.00	388.00	11.30	21.60
5150	377.00	387.00	11.40	21.60
5200	380.00	386.00	11.40	21.50
5250	382.00	385.00	11.40	21.50
5300	385.00	384.00	11.40	21.40
5350	387.00	383.00	11.40	21.40
5400	389.00	381.00	11.40	21.30
5450	391.00	379.00	11.40	21.10
5500	393.00	378.00	11.40	21.00
5550	394.00	376.00	11.40	20.90
5600	396.00	373.00	11.40	20.80
5650	397.00	371.00	11.40	20.60
5700	397.00	368.00	11.40	20.50
5750	397.00	364.00	11.40	20.40
5800	396.00	361.00	11.30	20.20
5850	396.00	357.00	11.30	20.10
5900	395.00	354.00	11.20	20.00
5950	395.00	350.00	11.20	19.90
6000	394.00	347.00	11.20	19.90
6050	394.00	344.00	11.10	19.80
6100	394.00	340.00	11.10	19.80
6150	393.00	337.00	11.10	19.70
6200	392.00	334.00	11.10	19.70
6250	392.00	331.00	11.10	19.60
6300	391.00	328.00	11.10	19.60
6350	391.00	324.00	11.00	19.60
6400	390.00	322.00	11.10	19.60
6450	390.00	319.00	11.10	19.60
6500	390.00	316.00	11.10	19.70
6550	390.00	314.00	11.10	19.70
6600	389.00	311.00	11.10	19.70
6650	388.00	308.00	11.10	19.80
6700	387.00	304.00	11.00	19.80

2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STi 07-24-2009 05:00 pm
Ken Zielinski
Full Race Twin Scroll GT35R, Twin 44mm EWG, Perrin catback, Full Race FMIC with Rotated Intake Manifold, DW850cc, KS Tech 83mm Intake, Cobb V2 AP Tuned by EFI Logics 21psi PUMP GAS!

RPM	HP	Torque	AFR	Boost
2700	78.00	152.00	14.90	2.30
2750	81.00	155.00	14.80	2.60
2800	85.00	159.00	14.90	2.90
2850	88.00	164.00	14.90	3.20
2900	92.00	168.00	14.90	3.50
2950	97.00	173.00	14.80	3.80
3000	101.00	178.00	14.60	4.10
3050	105.00	182.00	14.40	4.40
3100	109.00	186.00	14.30	4.70
3150	113.00	190.00	14.10	5.00
3200	117.00	193.00	13.90	5.30
3250	121.00	196.00	13.70	5.60
3300	125.00	200.00	13.50	6.00
3350	129.00	203.00	13.30	6.30
3400	133.00	207.00	13.10	6.70
3450	137.00	210.00	12.90	7.10
3500	142.00	214.00	12.70	7.50
3550	147.00	218.00	12.50	8.00
3600	152.00	222.00	12.40	8.40
3650	157.00	226.00	12.20	8.90
3700	162.00	230.00	12.10	9.40
3750	167.00	235.00	11.90	9.90
3800	173.00	240.00	11.80	10.40
3850	178.00	244.00	11.70	11.00
3900	184.00	248.00	11.60	11.50
3950	190.00	253.00	11.50	12.10
4000	196.00	259.00	11.40	12.70
4050	203.00	264.00	11.30	13.30
4100	210.00	270.00	11.30	14.00
4150	217.00	276.00	11.20	14.60
4200	225.00	283.00	11.10	15.30
4250	234.00	290.00	11.10	16.00
4300	243.00	297.00	11.10	16.70
4350	251.00	304.00	11.00	17.30
4400	260.00	311.00	11.00	18.00
4450	268.00	318.00	11.00	18.50
4500	276.00	324.00	11.00	19.10
4550	285.00	330.00	11.00	19.60
4600	293.00	336.00	11.00	20.00
4650	300.00	341.00	11.00	20.30
4700	307.00	345.00	11.00	20.60
4750	313.00	348.00	11.10	20.90
4800	319.00	351.00	11.10	21.10
4850	325.00	354.00	11.10	21.30
4900	330.00	356.00	11.10	21.40
4950	334.00	357.00	11.10	21.50
5000	338.00	358.00	11.10	21.50
5050	342.00	358.00	11.20	21.60
5100	346.00	359.00	11.20	21.60
5150	350.00	359.00	11.20	21.70
5200	354.00	359.00	11.20	21.70
5250	357.00	359.00	11.20	21.80
5300	361.00	360.00	11.20	21.80
5350	364.00	360.00	11.20	21.90
5400	368.00	360.00	11.20	21.90
5450	371.00	360.00	11.20	22.00
5500	374.00	360.00	11.20	22.00
5550	377.00	359.00	11.20	22.00
5600	380.00	358.00	11.20	22.10
5650	383.00	358.00	11.20	22.10
5700	385.00	357.00	11.20	22.10
5750	387.00	356.00	11.10	22.10
5800	390.00	355.00	11.10	22.10
5850	391.00	353.00	11.10	22.00
5900	393.00	352.00	11.10	22.00
5950	394.00	350.00	11.10	22.00
6000	396.00	348.00	11.00	21.90
6050	397.00	347.00	11.00	21.90
6100	398.00	345.00	11.00	21.90
6150	400.00	343.00	11.00	21.80
6200	401.00	341.00	11.00	21.80
6250	401.00	339.00	11.40	21.80
6300	402.00	337.00	11.40	21.80
6350	402.00	334.00	11.40	21.90
6400	402.00	332.00	11.40	21.90
6450	403.00	329.00	11.40	22.00
6500	403.00	327.00	11.40	22.10
6550	402.00	324.00	11.40	22.20
6600	402.00	321.00	11.40	22.20
6650	402.00	319.00	11.40	22.30
6700	402.00	317.00	11.40	22.40
6750	402.00	314.00	11.40	22.50
6800	401.00	311.00	11.50	22.60
6850	401.00	309.00	11.50	22.70

FYI - Too many differences between those two cars to draw a realistic comparison. Trying to compare two different cars with different equipment causes confusion.

You can't do it. It doesn't work.