Looking to make a 600hp EVO VIII...what will it take?
Evolving Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
From: Dallas, TX
Fair enough, I didn't really realize that the price of premium there was $2.20, here it is like $1.80, but still you are paying twice as much for fuel costs for about 10-12% more power. I am just saying, you have to recognize my point. 
As for me, the Corvett or Camero are not my flavor at all. However, if I wanted to get a drag style type of car, these are the ones I would get.
As for me, the Corvett or Camero are not my flavor at all. However, if I wanted to get a drag style type of car, these are the ones I would get.
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: baltimore
I wouldn't be so quick to knock the guys who use race fuel.
Think about it for a second...
Some one puts a $3500-$5000 turbo kit on their car with a $600 set of cams, and a $1000 intercooler, and a $2500 head job, and a $1500 clutch, and a $3000 dollar ECU, what is $5.00 for some gasoline?
Yea you migh be able to put out 400 on pump gas at a 40deg ambient temperature. Run the same tune in 90 degree heat and forget about it. Better gasoline is added insurance. It is not like you need it when driving on low boost to work.
Race cars use race gas.
If you have a 600hp 2.0 engine it is a race car. If you can't swallow that than you should not be looking for that much power.
If you plan to have that much power all the time, expect to tear the engine down every 10,000 miles or so to refresh the bearings, and rings.
Also please don't forget that the z06 has almost 3 times the displacement of the 4g63.
You can't evenly compair the two engines. The cylinder pressures of a turbocharged 2.0 is much higher than that of a 5.7 n/a.
A low end torque compairison would be a total joke.
Just wondering this is a drag car, or high speed car right?
400 at the wheels with good spool in an evo sould be enough to stomp just about anything on the road course.
aaron
edit: If you are serious about the 600whp thing I would go with hks272's a gt35r turbo a 40mm wastegate, a great intercooler, a nice high velocity, high flow intake manifold, a well ported head (keeping velocity up and improving flow), larger valves, a really nice head gasket (!), 850cc+ of fuel per cylinder, a nice fuel pump, a fuel rail, some sort of standalone {insert whatever brand your local tuner or you your self know how to tune} and some C16 fuel.
I'd probably try to run 8 injectors maybe the factory units plus 4x 550cc's. Hell you could even run the second set off of race fuel and the first set off of pump gas just have 2 separate tanks.
The options are endless, you are limited by physics, your wallet and your imagination....
A
Think about it for a second...
Some one puts a $3500-$5000 turbo kit on their car with a $600 set of cams, and a $1000 intercooler, and a $2500 head job, and a $1500 clutch, and a $3000 dollar ECU, what is $5.00 for some gasoline?
Yea you migh be able to put out 400 on pump gas at a 40deg ambient temperature. Run the same tune in 90 degree heat and forget about it. Better gasoline is added insurance. It is not like you need it when driving on low boost to work.
Race cars use race gas.
If you have a 600hp 2.0 engine it is a race car. If you can't swallow that than you should not be looking for that much power.
If you plan to have that much power all the time, expect to tear the engine down every 10,000 miles or so to refresh the bearings, and rings.
Also please don't forget that the z06 has almost 3 times the displacement of the 4g63.
You can't evenly compair the two engines. The cylinder pressures of a turbocharged 2.0 is much higher than that of a 5.7 n/a.
A low end torque compairison would be a total joke.
Just wondering this is a drag car, or high speed car right?
400 at the wheels with good spool in an evo sould be enough to stomp just about anything on the road course.
aaron
edit: If you are serious about the 600whp thing I would go with hks272's a gt35r turbo a 40mm wastegate, a great intercooler, a nice high velocity, high flow intake manifold, a well ported head (keeping velocity up and improving flow), larger valves, a really nice head gasket (!), 850cc+ of fuel per cylinder, a nice fuel pump, a fuel rail, some sort of standalone {insert whatever brand your local tuner or you your self know how to tune} and some C16 fuel.
I'd probably try to run 8 injectors maybe the factory units plus 4x 550cc's. Hell you could even run the second set off of race fuel and the first set off of pump gas just have 2 separate tanks.
The options are endless, you are limited by physics, your wallet and your imagination....
A
Last edited by aaronyoung; Nov 13, 2003 at 07:29 PM.
Originally posted by aaronyoung
If you are serious about the 600whp thing I would go with hks272's a gt35r turbo a 40mm wastegate, a great intercooler, a nice high velocity, high flow intake manifold, a well ported head (keeping velocity up and improving flow), larger valves, a really nice head gasket (!), 850cc+ of fuel per cylinder, a nice fuel pump, a fuel rail, some sort of standalone {insert whatever brand your local tuner or you your self know how to tune} and some C16 fuel.
I'd probably try to run 8 injectors maybe the factory units plus 4x 550cc's. Hell you could even run the second set off of race fuel and the first set off of pump gas just have 2 separate tanks.
The options are endless, you are limited by physics, your wallet and your imagination....
A
If you are serious about the 600whp thing I would go with hks272's a gt35r turbo a 40mm wastegate, a great intercooler, a nice high velocity, high flow intake manifold, a well ported head (keeping velocity up and improving flow), larger valves, a really nice head gasket (!), 850cc+ of fuel per cylinder, a nice fuel pump, a fuel rail, some sort of standalone {insert whatever brand your local tuner or you your self know how to tune} and some C16 fuel.
I'd probably try to run 8 injectors maybe the factory units plus 4x 550cc's. Hell you could even run the second set off of race fuel and the first set off of pump gas just have 2 separate tanks.
The options are endless, you are limited by physics, your wallet and your imagination....
A
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Holy Smokes!!
Wow! Thanks for all the input. A ton of good suggestions here. Perhaps a RELIABLE 600hp EVO VIII on pump gas is not realistic.
Then what is a realistic number to shoot for on 91 Octane 'crap' gas from CA??
Which tuners are building the most powerful, AND RELIABLE packages??? Do they have websites????
I wanted to start off with a solid platform:
1) Low compression 2.5L stroker kit with 'the works'
2) 6-Speed sequential tranny
3) Widebody kit to fit some serious rubber for traction (275s+)
4) A BIG, yet streetable Turbo
5) Mammoth intercooler
Where can I find these goodies. I decided that I would rather keep the stock engine, and buy a completely assembled long block stroker engine.
Maybe I will surprise some DIS-BELIEVERS. Over a year ago I started on a quest to make an 800hp naturally aspirated Viper package that would run on 91 Octane pump gas. Many did not think we could attain those power levels without superchargers, turbos, or nitrous. They were wrong for the most part. 780hp /850tq, engine only, pump gas, very streetable was the result!!
Wish me luck!
Then what is a realistic number to shoot for on 91 Octane 'crap' gas from CA??
Which tuners are building the most powerful, AND RELIABLE packages??? Do they have websites????
I wanted to start off with a solid platform:
1) Low compression 2.5L stroker kit with 'the works'
2) 6-Speed sequential tranny
3) Widebody kit to fit some serious rubber for traction (275s+)
4) A BIG, yet streetable Turbo
5) Mammoth intercooler
Where can I find these goodies. I decided that I would rather keep the stock engine, and buy a completely assembled long block stroker engine.
Maybe I will surprise some DIS-BELIEVERS. Over a year ago I started on a quest to make an 800hp naturally aspirated Viper package that would run on 91 Octane pump gas. Many did not think we could attain those power levels without superchargers, turbos, or nitrous. They were wrong for the most part. 780hp /850tq, engine only, pump gas, very streetable was the result!!
Wish me luck!
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
From: Walnut, Ca
I don't want to sound like an *** but I've told many people with the same question as you.
"If you don't know what you need to build it..... don't build it"
First off you don't need a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$.... not if you throw out the sequential paddle shift and 2.5L stroker.
At most a Jun 2.2 4g63 stroker kit will do, but personally I don't think it's necessary. As is 600HP isn't necessary either. Also you don't need a "widebodykit", so ricey. Your car is AWD, you won't have any issues with traction, not even with 600hp.
And also are you wanting 600 at the crank or wheel? Just to let you know there are a few dsms out there (not evo's though) that has made 450+ - 550+hp WHP (Dre's GSX, and Smithey's GST), not to mention john shepard's 1g talon. Those are all street cars with full interior (not sure about shepard's though).
Also I hear a lot of "stage 3, stage 5" or whatever, I might just be ignorant and I admit I'm no EVO expert, but isn't there PLENTY of aftermarket turbos for the 4g63? (ie. FP red/green, FP3065, AGP BB turbos). There are a lot of turbos that bolt right onto the stock exhaust mani. With a bigger FMIC, 660-720cc injectors, 255lph fuel pump, intake, cams, exhaust/dp, etc etc. Tune it correctly and bam, you got yourself at least 450-500hp+ hp right there.
But hey, if you got too much money, and you want the ultimate bragging rights go for it. All i'm saying is if you can leave out the bells n whistles, 500-600hp is easily attainable with very little money. I'd say at most $6000, and that is going from bone stock to 500whp.
Oh yea, all this is for a "street car on pump gas". If you're talking about 100+octane, upgraded pistons n rods, 500-600whp can easily be done.
"If you don't know what you need to build it..... don't build it"
First off you don't need a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$.... not if you throw out the sequential paddle shift and 2.5L stroker.
At most a Jun 2.2 4g63 stroker kit will do, but personally I don't think it's necessary. As is 600HP isn't necessary either. Also you don't need a "widebodykit", so ricey. Your car is AWD, you won't have any issues with traction, not even with 600hp.
And also are you wanting 600 at the crank or wheel? Just to let you know there are a few dsms out there (not evo's though) that has made 450+ - 550+hp WHP (Dre's GSX, and Smithey's GST), not to mention john shepard's 1g talon. Those are all street cars with full interior (not sure about shepard's though).
Also I hear a lot of "stage 3, stage 5" or whatever, I might just be ignorant and I admit I'm no EVO expert, but isn't there PLENTY of aftermarket turbos for the 4g63? (ie. FP red/green, FP3065, AGP BB turbos). There are a lot of turbos that bolt right onto the stock exhaust mani. With a bigger FMIC, 660-720cc injectors, 255lph fuel pump, intake, cams, exhaust/dp, etc etc. Tune it correctly and bam, you got yourself at least 450-500hp+ hp right there.
But hey, if you got too much money, and you want the ultimate bragging rights go for it. All i'm saying is if you can leave out the bells n whistles, 500-600hp is easily attainable with very little money. I'd say at most $6000, and that is going from bone stock to 500whp.
Oh yea, all this is for a "street car on pump gas". If you're talking about 100+octane, upgraded pistons n rods, 500-600whp can easily be done.
Last edited by NskGenakuDuckie; Nov 14, 2003 at 12:58 AM.
A couple notes, then, since you aren't very familiar with the options for an EVO. I don't know of any 2.5L specific stroker kits. Again, stroker is more for torque; it can't hang onto it at high rpms to make quite as big HP numbers, usually.
The stock headgasket is MLS and up to the task of lots of power.
The 6 speed trans from Japan is weak compared to the 5 speed.
I have never seen a widebody kit. You will see lots of EVO's at auto salons but ultimately the EVO is not as much of a "looks" car like some cars.
Many stroker kits like JUN are using a 4G64 crank and custom pistons and rods. If you want big displacement, try fitting a 4G64 in whole form. It is 2.4L and has better geometry than a stroked out max car.
On the side note of HP... A vette alone costs $20k more and how much more HP do you get? Maybe a bit over 100. That makes it $200/HP.
I apologize for the mis-quote on the turbo kit; we have a local guy in the street race scene who has that "crazy" Lingenfelter kit, so that's what I was basing that off of. I thought for sure that was a stage 1... I seriously doubt $7k is enough for a complete twin turbo setup. It is probably a kit; less engine management and a host of other things. <shrug>
Any car when pushed to the limits, whether big bore American cars or import turbos will require higher octane at extreme levels of power. I understand your frustration about those not advertising the octane rating (they pretty much assume you know that); that is why I ALWAYS ask when I speak with a new supplier about their kit. I always end up asking what it does on regular octane levels as well. I'd prefer my customers to know the whole situation before they get into it. Thus I say that the EVO is heavily octane dependent at high power levels.
Regarding John Shepards 1G; it has dynoed at just over 1000 whp but uses C16 AND a 125 shot.
BTW, FP's stuff is built for DSM's not the EVO exhaust manifold flanges. The FP's are nothing more than a well balanced and configured GT turbo. It is expensive and cool because it bolts to a stock DSM manifold. This is from FP themselves. They will no doubt be making something for us as well but the twin scroll issue is taking them longer.
Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com
The stock headgasket is MLS and up to the task of lots of power.
The 6 speed trans from Japan is weak compared to the 5 speed.
I have never seen a widebody kit. You will see lots of EVO's at auto salons but ultimately the EVO is not as much of a "looks" car like some cars.
Many stroker kits like JUN are using a 4G64 crank and custom pistons and rods. If you want big displacement, try fitting a 4G64 in whole form. It is 2.4L and has better geometry than a stroked out max car.
On the side note of HP... A vette alone costs $20k more and how much more HP do you get? Maybe a bit over 100. That makes it $200/HP.
I apologize for the mis-quote on the turbo kit; we have a local guy in the street race scene who has that "crazy" Lingenfelter kit, so that's what I was basing that off of. I thought for sure that was a stage 1... I seriously doubt $7k is enough for a complete twin turbo setup. It is probably a kit; less engine management and a host of other things. <shrug>Any car when pushed to the limits, whether big bore American cars or import turbos will require higher octane at extreme levels of power. I understand your frustration about those not advertising the octane rating (they pretty much assume you know that); that is why I ALWAYS ask when I speak with a new supplier about their kit. I always end up asking what it does on regular octane levels as well. I'd prefer my customers to know the whole situation before they get into it. Thus I say that the EVO is heavily octane dependent at high power levels.
Regarding John Shepards 1G; it has dynoed at just over 1000 whp but uses C16 AND a 125 shot.
BTW, FP's stuff is built for DSM's not the EVO exhaust manifold flanges. The FP's are nothing more than a well balanced and configured GT turbo. It is expensive and cool because it bolts to a stock DSM manifold. This is from FP themselves. They will no doubt be making something for us as well but the twin scroll issue is taking them longer.
Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com
Originally posted by QuantumEVO
Many stroker kits like JUN are using a 4G64 crank and custom pistons and rods. If you want big displacement, try fitting a 4G64 in whole form. It is 2.4L and has better geometry than a stroked out max car.
[/url]
Many stroker kits like JUN are using a 4G64 crank and custom pistons and rods. If you want big displacement, try fitting a 4G64 in whole form. It is 2.4L and has better geometry than a stroked out max car.
[/url]
Last edited by maki; Nov 14, 2003 at 10:01 AM.
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Queens,NY
If you make 505HP at the Wheels then you are making600 HP at the flywheel. A number attainable but probably with a NX Ntercooler Kit using N2O or a good 50 HP Shot of N20.
Which is essentially the same thing.
But as far as I can remember when tuning a N20 system.
The more N20 the more fuel gets dumped and no higher octane rating is required. The same theory should work with turbocharging the more boost you add the more fuel you need not neccesarily higher Octane. More Fuel Pressure and Larger Injectors to be able to manage higher boost levels.
Originally posted by darkcydenyc
If you make 505HP at the Wheels then you are making
600 HP at the flywheel. A number attainable but probably with a NX Ntercooler Kit using N2O or a good 50 HP Shot of N20.
Which is essentially the same thing.
But as far as I can remember when tuning a N20 system.
The more N20 the more fuel gets dumped and no higher octane rating is required. The same theory should work with turbocharging the more boost you add the more fuel you need not neccesarily higher Octane. More Fuel Pressure and Larger Injectors to be able to manage higher boost levels.
If you make 505HP at the Wheels then you are making600 HP at the flywheel. A number attainable but probably with a NX Ntercooler Kit using N2O or a good 50 HP Shot of N20.
Which is essentially the same thing.
But as far as I can remember when tuning a N20 system.
The more N20 the more fuel gets dumped and no higher octane rating is required. The same theory should work with turbocharging the more boost you add the more fuel you need not neccesarily higher Octane. More Fuel Pressure and Larger Injectors to be able to manage higher boost levels.
Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com
Evolving Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
From: Dallas, TX
Originally posted by QuantumEVO
A couple notes, then, since you aren't very familiar with the options for an EVO. I don't know of any 2.5L specific stroker kits. Again, stroker is more for torque; it can't hang onto it at high rpms to make quite as big HP numbers, usually.
The stock headgasket is MLS and up to the task of lots of power.
The 6 speed trans from Japan is weak compared to the 5 speed.
I have never seen a widebody kit. You will see lots of EVO's at auto salons but ultimately the EVO is not as much of a "looks" car like some cars.
Many stroker kits like JUN are using a 4G64 crank and custom pistons and rods. If you want big displacement, try fitting a 4G64 in whole form. It is 2.4L and has better geometry than a stroked out max car.
On the side note of HP... A vette alone costs $20k more and how much more HP do you get? Maybe a bit over 100. That makes it $200/HP. I apologize for the mis-quote on the turbo kit; we have a local guy in the street race scene who has that "crazy" Lingenfelter kit, so that's what I was basing that off of. I thought for sure that was a stage 1... I seriously doubt $7k is enough for a complete twin turbo setup. It is probably a kit; less engine management and a host of other things. <shrug>
Any car when pushed to the limits, whether big bore American cars or import turbos will require higher octane at extreme levels of power. I understand your frustration about those not advertising the octane rating (they pretty much assume you know that); that is why I ALWAYS ask when I speak with a new supplier about their kit. I always end up asking what it does on regular octane levels as well. I'd prefer my customers to know the whole situation before they get into it. Thus I say that the EVO is heavily octane dependent at high power levels.
Regarding John Shepards 1G; it has dynoed at just over 1000 whp but uses C16 AND a 125 shot.
BTW, FP's stuff is built for DSM's not the EVO exhaust manifold flanges. The FP's are nothing more than a well balanced and configured GT turbo. It is expensive and cool because it bolts to a stock DSM manifold. This is from FP themselves. They will no doubt be making something for us as well but the twin scroll issue is taking them longer.
Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com
A couple notes, then, since you aren't very familiar with the options for an EVO. I don't know of any 2.5L specific stroker kits. Again, stroker is more for torque; it can't hang onto it at high rpms to make quite as big HP numbers, usually.
The stock headgasket is MLS and up to the task of lots of power.
The 6 speed trans from Japan is weak compared to the 5 speed.
I have never seen a widebody kit. You will see lots of EVO's at auto salons but ultimately the EVO is not as much of a "looks" car like some cars.
Many stroker kits like JUN are using a 4G64 crank and custom pistons and rods. If you want big displacement, try fitting a 4G64 in whole form. It is 2.4L and has better geometry than a stroked out max car.
On the side note of HP... A vette alone costs $20k more and how much more HP do you get? Maybe a bit over 100. That makes it $200/HP.
I apologize for the mis-quote on the turbo kit; we have a local guy in the street race scene who has that "crazy" Lingenfelter kit, so that's what I was basing that off of. I thought for sure that was a stage 1... I seriously doubt $7k is enough for a complete twin turbo setup. It is probably a kit; less engine management and a host of other things. <shrug>Any car when pushed to the limits, whether big bore American cars or import turbos will require higher octane at extreme levels of power. I understand your frustration about those not advertising the octane rating (they pretty much assume you know that); that is why I ALWAYS ask when I speak with a new supplier about their kit. I always end up asking what it does on regular octane levels as well. I'd prefer my customers to know the whole situation before they get into it. Thus I say that the EVO is heavily octane dependent at high power levels.
Regarding John Shepards 1G; it has dynoed at just over 1000 whp but uses C16 AND a 125 shot.
BTW, FP's stuff is built for DSM's not the EVO exhaust manifold flanges. The FP's are nothing more than a well balanced and configured GT turbo. It is expensive and cool because it bolts to a stock DSM manifold. This is from FP themselves. They will no doubt be making something for us as well but the twin scroll issue is taking them longer.
Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com
P.S. Hey AL, what ever happened to your car? I thought it was robbed, and the engine was blown? Are you going to make the 600+ monster on the EVO drivetrain, or your frankestein Ferrari that you were talking about?? Inquiring minds want to know.
Originally posted by Mean TT
That is exactly what I am talking about.
That is exactly what I am talking about.
Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
but isn't there PLENTY of aftermarket turbos for the 4g63? (ie. FP red/green, FP3065, AGP BB turbos). There are a lot of turbos that bolt right onto the stock exhaust mani.
4g64 crank and forget pistons cant really compare to jun stroker. Its like comparing a seiko to a rolex. 2.2l kit was designed and built in their factory, its definatelly the strongest and best balanced kit available for 4g63. Take a look at norris design and prospeed of sweeden, well over 700hp.
A number attainable but probably with a NX Ntercooler Kit using N2O or a good 50 HP Shot of N20.
Which is essentially the same thing.
The more N20 the more fuel gets dumped and no higher octane rating is required. The same theory should work with turbocharging the more boost you add the more fuel you need not neccesarily higher Octane. More Fuel Pressure and Larger Injectors to be able to manage higher boost levels.
Which is essentially the same thing.
The more N20 the more fuel gets dumped and no higher octane rating is required. The same theory should work with turbocharging the more boost you add the more fuel you need not neccesarily higher Octane. More Fuel Pressure and Larger Injectors to be able to manage higher boost levels.
And thats bull****
It isn't as simple as that. If you are going to use a power adder like NOS which can only be used for a short period of time, you may as well use propane which can be used constantly.
Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
Different systems, diferent setups....not mutually exclusive
Different systems, diferent setups....not mutually exclusive
Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com
