Best turbos to use on Stroker/High compression.
Jun 16, 2010, 06:49 PM
#17
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This dyno chart is the progression of one of our customer cars here. The first is a stock motor evo with:
AMS stage 1
AMS Front mount IC
Stock evo 8 turbo
Stock cams
AMS custom flash
The pump gas (24PSI) and E85 (32PSI) tune are much different.
AMS 2.3 Stroker motor
AMS Evo 8 CNC head
AMS Prototype F1-I intake manifold
AMS 750R turbo kit
Kelford 272 cams
This car was set up for the street so the tune reflects that. A rode race tune may be a little less aggressive.
AMS stage 1
AMS Front mount IC
Stock evo 8 turbo
Stock cams
AMS custom flash
The pump gas (24PSI) and E85 (32PSI) tune are much different.
AMS 2.3 Stroker motor
AMS Evo 8 CNC head
AMS Prototype F1-I intake manifold
AMS 750R turbo kit
Kelford 272 cams
This car was set up for the street so the tune reflects that. A rode race tune may be a little less aggressive.
Jun 16, 2010, 06:53 PM
#18
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I really wonder what this would do on my built motor. This doesn't look too bad. 4500rpm spool on stock block. 400tq, 500hp. I'd imagine full spool at 4000 at most on my build and more tq.hp across the band. What are your thoughts? This seems to flow like a hta3076r.
Jun 16, 2010, 07:16 PM
#19
Turbos-
HTA 3076 has made 557whp on E85 on an old school DSM 2.0L with really good spool on our dyno. That turbo (the same one Drifto is using) on a bigger motor (in this case an Evo) should conceivably make the same power at less boost with less lag before we even begin to take the head and cams into account. For what you describe overall that seem like the one I would pick.
The next one would be a 3082/3065 as a twin scroll. In a single scroll 2.0L application we were able to make peak torque at 4500 and good power out to 8500, again the larger motor and better cylinder head afforded to the Evo will move the power down and make more of it.
I dont see the power in the video being made as we did it on an 11:1 compression, E98, JMF manifold, FP3065 at 34psi, FP4Rs and only made 640whp. I will say that the 1G head isnt as good but I dont know about 40hp or 100 ft lbs of torque.
General- There is alot to be said for how the car feels prior to boost, the dead zone as you called it, relative to tune. As much timing as keeps the torque up, AFRs in the high 12s low 13s, all go towards making the most all motor horsepower possible and keep the car feeling as good as it can.
Cams and how the MIVEC are setup is the next biggest cause of a car that doesnt feel right. I will go look for the last Red I did on a 2.0L IX right quick.
HTA 3076 has made 557whp on E85 on an old school DSM 2.0L with really good spool on our dyno. That turbo (the same one Drifto is using) on a bigger motor (in this case an Evo) should conceivably make the same power at less boost with less lag before we even begin to take the head and cams into account. For what you describe overall that seem like the one I would pick.
The next one would be a 3082/3065 as a twin scroll. In a single scroll 2.0L application we were able to make peak torque at 4500 and good power out to 8500, again the larger motor and better cylinder head afforded to the Evo will move the power down and make more of it.
I dont see the power in the video being made as we did it on an 11:1 compression, E98, JMF manifold, FP3065 at 34psi, FP4Rs and only made 640whp. I will say that the 1G head isnt as good but I dont know about 40hp or 100 ft lbs of torque.
General- There is alot to be said for how the car feels prior to boost, the dead zone as you called it, relative to tune. As much timing as keeps the torque up, AFRs in the high 12s low 13s, all go towards making the most all motor horsepower possible and keep the car feeling as good as it can.
Cams and how the MIVEC are setup is the next biggest cause of a car that doesnt feel right. I will go look for the last Red I did on a 2.0L IX right quick.
Jun 16, 2010, 07:23 PM
#20
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/no...sh-racing.html
S1 cams, well engineered combo, still a MAF even, and its making full torque at 3800 and crosses 300 ft lbs at 3600 all starting the pull at only 3200.
Point is not what you could have done with the RED, but how all the rest of the parts are as important as the turbo, and in the end how its tuned is the ultimate key to how it feels on the street. My 3586 feels fine on the street, makes power for days, and is snappy enough between shifts. All from a large single scroll, which I am sure could be enhanced further with the application of a T4 TS housing should I choose its what I need to do.
Jun 16, 2010, 07:55 PM
#22
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Turbos-
HTA 3076 has made 557whp on E85 on an old school DSM 2.0L with really good spool on our dyno. That turbo (the same one Drifto is using) on a bigger motor (in this case an Evo) should conceivably make the same power at less boost with less lag before we even begin to take the head and cams into account. For what you describe overall that seem like the one I would pick.
The next one would be a 3082/3065 as a twin scroll. In a single scroll 2.0L application we were able to make peak torque at 4500 and good power out to 8500, again the larger motor and better cylinder head afforded to the Evo will move the power down and make more of it.
I dont see the power in the video being made as we did it on an 11:1 compression, E98, JMF manifold, FP3065 at 34psi, FP4Rs and only made 640whp. I will say that the 1G head isnt as good but I dont know about 40hp or 100 ft lbs of torque.
General- There is alot to be said for how the car feels prior to boost, the dead zone as you called it, relative to tune. As much timing as keeps the torque up, AFRs in the high 12s low 13s, all go towards making the most all motor horsepower possible and keep the car feeling as good as it can.
Cams and how the MIVEC are setup is the next biggest cause of a car that doesnt feel right. I will go look for the last Red I did on a 2.0L IX right quick.
HTA 3076 has made 557whp on E85 on an old school DSM 2.0L with really good spool on our dyno. That turbo (the same one Drifto is using) on a bigger motor (in this case an Evo) should conceivably make the same power at less boost with less lag before we even begin to take the head and cams into account. For what you describe overall that seem like the one I would pick.
The next one would be a 3082/3065 as a twin scroll. In a single scroll 2.0L application we were able to make peak torque at 4500 and good power out to 8500, again the larger motor and better cylinder head afforded to the Evo will move the power down and make more of it.
I dont see the power in the video being made as we did it on an 11:1 compression, E98, JMF manifold, FP3065 at 34psi, FP4Rs and only made 640whp. I will say that the 1G head isnt as good but I dont know about 40hp or 100 ft lbs of torque.
General- There is alot to be said for how the car feels prior to boost, the dead zone as you called it, relative to tune. As much timing as keeps the torque up, AFRs in the high 12s low 13s, all go towards making the most all motor horsepower possible and keep the car feeling as good as it can.
Cams and how the MIVEC are setup is the next biggest cause of a car that doesnt feel right. I will go look for the last Red I did on a 2.0L IX right quick.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i129/jeri534/fpredtune.jpg
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/no...sh-racing.html
S1 cams, well engineered combo, still a MAF even, and its making full torque at 3800 and crosses 300 ft lbs at 3600 all starting the pull at only 3200.
Point is not what you could have done with the RED, but how all the rest of the parts are as important as the turbo, and in the end how its tuned is the ultimate key to how it feels on the street. My 3586 feels fine on the street, makes power for days, and is snappy enough between shifts. All from a large single scroll, which I am sure could be enhanced further with the application of a T4 TS housing should I choose its what I need to do.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/no...sh-racing.html
S1 cams, well engineered combo, still a MAF even, and its making full torque at 3800 and crosses 300 ft lbs at 3600 all starting the pull at only 3200.
Point is not what you could have done with the RED, but how all the rest of the parts are as important as the turbo, and in the end how its tuned is the ultimate key to how it feels on the street. My 3586 feels fine on the street, makes power for days, and is snappy enough between shifts. All from a large single scroll, which I am sure could be enhanced further with the application of a T4 TS housing should I choose its what I need to do.
I definitely want to do a TS setup. I just don't know which turbo to put it on, and what size TS to use.
At the moment, the hta3582r with a t4 TS 1.06 a/r is looking ok. maybe even a t3 TS 1.06.
Any more info/input is MUCHO appreciated.
JohnBradley, do you think a hta3076r can produce 550whp on 93 octane with sub 4k to 4k rpm spool with 25-26psi on my above mentioned build?
Jun 16, 2010, 08:15 PM
#23
Awesome spool. awesome TQ, but for me it doesn't hold the TQ long enough. This is on a stock 2.0 IX block? I have an IX, and when my block was stock, spool was well over 4000rpm's. My magnus v5 considerably raised the spool rpm. I'm not a fan of swapping out my intake manifold, or my kelford 272 cams at this point. I just don't know which turbo to put it on, and what size TS to use.
At the moment, the hta3582r with a t4 TS 1.06 a/r is looking ok. maybe even a t3 TS 1.06.
At the moment, the hta3582r with a t4 TS 1.06 a/r is looking ok. maybe even a t3 TS 1.06.
If the torque was perfectly flat the power just keeps ramping and the car never feels like it slows down just keeps accelerating. This is not optimum in the real world for a few reasons. The car is actually making far less mean power where something like the dyno sheet I listed the average power is significantly higher since it just flattens out. In the real world the car will pull exactly the same but on the shift fall into an rpm range with more power overall. I would rather have this scenario as a broad powerband is alot more fun than a peaky one.
I wouldnt get hung up on that in otherwords. The difference between Paper and Tarmac is pretty intense.
JohnBradley, do you think a hta3076r can produce 550whp on 93 octane with sub 4k to 4k rpm spool with 25-26psi on my above mentioned build?
If it were me I would mimic Ted B's build with the exception of the 2.4 you are doing vs his 2.0L. I will think that you could make similar power with less intensive modifications and thought to how the combo must work together. It is not meant as a slight, Ted has NASA level thought behind how his car went together. It is no accident that the results are what they are. Most other builds can make the same power with the HTA3582 but will have to rely a little more on brute force to do it I feel. We made a pretty easy 510whp on a HTA3582 at 26psi with all the same mods as you only with a 2.0L. The single scroll version slowed it down as did the lack of MIVEC. A 2.4 version of Big Jesse's build with MIVEC should spool almost 1000rpm faster than it did (26psi at 4900) and make more power at that boost level I think.
aaron
Last edited by JohnBradley; Jun 16, 2010 at 08:18 PM.
Jun 17, 2010, 07:37 AM
#24
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That's believable for a 2.3.
Others may distort information. We don't.
Here they are in full, with a big smoothing factor just to squelch any doubt - no change.
Base - 568whp twinscroll 2.0 with HTA3076 and 1.06 divided T3 on E85 - Drifto
Comp - 585whp twinscroll 2.0 with HTA3582 and 1.06 divided T4 on 93 octane - Ted B.
Others may distort information. We don't.
Here they are in full, with a big smoothing factor just to squelch any doubt - no change.
Base - 568whp twinscroll 2.0 with HTA3076 and 1.06 divided T3 on E85 - Drifto
Comp - 585whp twinscroll 2.0 with HTA3582 and 1.06 divided T4 on 93 octane - Ted B.
It very well could be off. From my data I am showing full load around 4100 RPM, sadly there is no upgraded map sensor to record boost though.. This is why I am usually reluctant to post VDR data on this forum, let alone in the tuning results section..
Jun 17, 2010, 07:58 AM
#25
You want the TS T4 setup. The FP Black and HTA3582 share the same compressor. Aside from the HTA's BB CHRA, the only remaining difference is in the turbine side. If you are going to spend the time and money to fit a large, non-stock frame turbo, get the most bang for the buck by going to the TS T4 hotside. You won't be sorry you did.
Jun 17, 2010, 08:23 AM
#26
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I was not trying to imply anything, but 99% of the vdr data posted on this forum is without critical info.. I do think those TS setups are performing very well sir
It very well could be off. From my data I am showing full load around 4100 RPM, sadly there is no upgraded map sensor to record boost though.. This is why I am usually reluctant to post VDR data on this forum, let alone in the tuning results section..
It very well could be off. From my data I am showing full load around 4100 RPM, sadly there is no upgraded map sensor to record boost though.. This is why I am usually reluctant to post VDR data on this forum, let alone in the tuning results section..
3065 is non billet, it is a std 3582 in a 30R turbine. Theoretically it should be able to move 65 lbs min like the 3582 and spool faster. In practice it starts to choke faster because of the compressor/turbine mismatch. It will make more power than the 3076HTA everything else being equal. The HTA 3076 can make good power on pump but will really shine (like most turbos) on E85.
That was a stock motor yes. I havent found the Magnus to significantly reduce spool, though it could on a small enough turbo cause a reduction in torque depending on tune and boost level. When the torque and power are flat you dont notice the torque drop off. The car keeps pulling without any really feeling of a surge as I suspect you probably feel if you were making 400/480 prior. The reason is the engine achieves max acceleration early and tapers off toward redline.
If the torque was perfectly flat the power just keeps ramping and the car never feels like it slows down just keeps accelerating. This is not optimum in the real world for a few reasons. The car is actually making far less mean power where something like the dyno sheet I listed the average power is significantly higher since it just flattens out. In the real world the car will pull exactly the same but on the shift fall into an rpm range with more power overall. I would rather have this scenario as a broad powerband is alot more fun than a peaky one.
I wouldnt get hung up on that in otherwords. The difference between Paper and Tarmac is pretty intense.
aaron
That was a stock motor yes. I havent found the Magnus to significantly reduce spool, though it could on a small enough turbo cause a reduction in torque depending on tune and boost level. When the torque and power are flat you dont notice the torque drop off. The car keeps pulling without any really feeling of a surge as I suspect you probably feel if you were making 400/480 prior. The reason is the engine achieves max acceleration early and tapers off toward redline.
If the torque was perfectly flat the power just keeps ramping and the car never feels like it slows down just keeps accelerating. This is not optimum in the real world for a few reasons. The car is actually making far less mean power where something like the dyno sheet I listed the average power is significantly higher since it just flattens out. In the real world the car will pull exactly the same but on the shift fall into an rpm range with more power overall. I would rather have this scenario as a broad powerband is alot more fun than a peaky one.
I wouldnt get hung up on that in otherwords. The difference between Paper and Tarmac is pretty intense.
aaron
I would like it to taper actually because in a road race car (bare with me here, long explanation, but it seems you know your stuff, so you'll get it) when you are near full G in a turn, (and let's put out there that roads are generally not made of glass, and are not perfectly flat. There is dirt, cracks, bumps, un-even surfaces, banks, etc) if your wheels aren't on the ground the whole time, and your rear wheels hit a bump that even the dampening settings on the suspension couldn't leave enough tire patch on the floor for... what will end up happening if you are full throttling during this period (with a perfectly flat tq curve) is your HP will drastically increase because you will loose grip, get tire spin, rpm will increase (hence the HP increase) and thus are more likely to spin out. It's actually less predictable/drivable power. It's nice to have a "curve" to the band. Or have a flat, or lightly raising HP band (not TQ). So I understand this stuff very well.
The reason I ask for a turbo/setup that can hold torque, is because it's easier to tune the boost that way. You can almost make the graph look however you want if you can get early spool, and hold that TQ to the end.
the HTA3076r is just too small to my liking. I'm definitely ruling that one out because of it's lack of ability to go well over 500 on pump. The HTA3582r is definitely an option. I just fear the daily drivability is going to be sluggish. If you say the 3082 is in between... and is a 3582r in a 30r frame, that really sounds like the ticket. It DOES bother me that it's not billet. Surge also bothers me a bit too. I tried researching this turbo, and can't find much on it? Is it a DSM turbo? Not really aimed towards the Evo crowd? Do you think that FP can custom fab the 3082 into a billet HTA? Something tells me this turbo setup would be ideal for me. Also, if this turbo existed... and I wanted to go twin scroll... what housing would you recommend in the TS? t3 or t4? and what size, .82, 1.0, 1.06, etc? I want to keep spool, and not have TQ taper too much later on. Again... pump hp target for me is 550 at anywhere between 6500-7500 rpm. TQ peak as close to 4000 rpms as possible, and held for as long as possible.
Also, I completely know what you mean by what's on paper/tarmac. I'm not a number quencher, nor do I live by dyno sheets. Actually I could barely care less about dyno sheets lol, I just use them as a starting point as to what part of the spectrum I can start my expectations/possibilities, and fine tune from there. I completely understand the difference of two cars with similar power bands on a dyno, yet put on the streets/tarmac. How power is put down is very important to me, hence the TS and 2.4 requirements to my road race/daily driver project evo. I also understand that two cars with nearly identical power bands, identical weight, can have drastically different quarter miles, and time attack lap times. Transition/Response affects a lot. These are all things that I keep in the back of my mind with all the decisions I make.
Granted I am no Nasa Guru like Ted, and I may have taken a lot of steps forward without that type of knowledge by my side, but I'm sure if I made any mistakes that would hinder the drivability of the car, they are not far off from what my goal is. From what I understand, this decision I'm making now will either make or brake the car in that sense. And this decision requires that extra push I figure I get from you guys, because I really don't want to make a mistake on the turbo, housing, manifold, wastegates/springs, etc. I want it to work. I'm not going to rip my hair out over 200rpms of spool time, but I will over 50hp, and/or bad drivability, and/or bad transition response.
Ive been pointed at the PT5857 billet ball bearing. To my understanding, this isn't capable of Twin Scroll? Should I rule out this turbo? TS is a must in this selection. Looks like I may have to stick to the 3082/3582.
I've heard a lot about Holset, but everyone that I ask about them (unless they actually have one) says "stick to what works and what's proven" and I'm actually a fan of that, so I can't really argue against it. I'm not a fan of being a ginny pig (definitely not in this expensive hobby) I'm not looking to be the best, or have the best motor build. I just want the power range I mention to be put down a specific way, so that I can have a smile on my face at the track every weekend
Jun 17, 2010, 09:01 AM
#27
It was originally really exploited on the DSMs. It will work the same if not better on the Evo in my opinion. I am not sure that I would be concerned about its being a non billet wheel. Doesnt seem to affect the last car we used it on-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWwWOoolXI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLFqSYX67RU
This car had usable power from 4-9k, but the bulk of it was as I had pointed out earlier between 4500-8500. The 2.0L motor didnt know it wasnt a billet compressor. An HTA version of this turbo might be pretty wild if there were plans to do such a critter. I think the T4TS 3582 HTA would be a better overall match though.
I dont know that the HTA3076 cant make over 500whp on pump, we just havent ever really beat on that turbo on pumpgas. The 2 we have done were E85 cars, and the one Evo that we did with that turbo never went to the dyno.
Aaron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWwWOoolXI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLFqSYX67RU
This car had usable power from 4-9k, but the bulk of it was as I had pointed out earlier between 4500-8500. The 2.0L motor didnt know it wasnt a billet compressor. An HTA version of this turbo might be pretty wild if there were plans to do such a critter. I think the T4TS 3582 HTA would be a better overall match though.
I dont know that the HTA3076 cant make over 500whp on pump, we just havent ever really beat on that turbo on pumpgas. The 2 we have done were E85 cars, and the one Evo that we did with that turbo never went to the dyno.
Aaron
Jun 17, 2010, 10:41 AM
#28
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Agreed, I see your point.
Given my experience with my own combo, I agree. The only aspect that isn't met by his criteria is the spool time, and the 20% increase in displacement will fix that.
You want the TS T4 setup. The FP Black and HTA3582 share the same compressor. Aside from the HTA's BB CHRA, the only remaining difference is in the turbine side. If you are going to spend the time and money to fit a large, non-stock frame turbo, get the most bang for the buck by going to the TS T4 hotside. You won't be sorry you did.
Given my experience with my own combo, I agree. The only aspect that isn't met by his criteria is the spool time, and the 20% increase in displacement will fix that.
You want the TS T4 setup. The FP Black and HTA3582 share the same compressor. Aside from the HTA's BB CHRA, the only remaining difference is in the turbine side. If you are going to spend the time and money to fit a large, non-stock frame turbo, get the most bang for the buck by going to the TS T4 hotside. You won't be sorry you did.
Jun 17, 2010, 08:45 PM
#29
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I think this thread is done. After some long phone conversations with ETS, FP, TurboTrix and last, but definitely not least, Justin at Epic Motorsports Force-Fed...
I have come to this conclusion for the
Since the 3076 is too small. and the difference from the 3582 to the 3586 in spool is <500rpm... it would be silly to not go 3586. And from further research, I found the T3 housing to be plenty sufficient in a divided 1.06 form.
Result:
HTA3586R
T3 Divided (Twin Scroll) 1.06 housing from ATP
Tial MVS Wastegates with 15 to 20lbs springs
More than likely an ETS kit.
All raw, no coating.
Next mission... run my FP Red to the ground...
Can't thank everyone enough for their time.
I have come to this conclusion for the
Since the 3076 is too small. and the difference from the 3582 to the 3586 in spool is <500rpm... it would be silly to not go 3586. And from further research, I found the T3 housing to be plenty sufficient in a divided 1.06 form.
Result:
HTA3586R
T3 Divided (Twin Scroll) 1.06 housing from ATP
Tial MVS Wastegates with 15 to 20lbs springs
More than likely an ETS kit.
All raw, no coating.
Next mission... run my FP Red to the ground...
Can't thank everyone enough for their time.
Jun 17, 2010, 10:01 PM
#30
Glad we could help buddy. do a lil more looking around and I will be glad to get on the phone with you anytime. You will find a ton of information from people besides myself as i explained to you on the phone from guys like Aaron, Geoff and some others on your thoughts.
Justin
Justin