Help! Did my cam install go terribly wrong?!
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Unless Fidanza has changed their design, he is not 90 deg off. The Fidanza has 2 key holes. (One is for DSM's if I recall correctly) and the one Marked "EVO" is of course for the EVO.
The degree markings for the adjustments are then necessarily at the 3'O'Clock position instead of straight up. I've had them on my VIII for well over 50K miles now.
The degree markings for the adjustments are then necessarily at the 3'O'Clock position instead of straight up. I've had them on my VIII for well over 50K miles now.
I do appreciate you taking some time however to give some advice/suggestions. I'll take any!
Last edited by Z_Lancer_Man; Aug 12, 2010 at 10:44 PM. Reason: clarification :)
If my wastegate was malfunctioning, could I see this kind of behavior?
Did you check it to see that:
1. flapper door operates freely when the WGA arm is disconnected
2. Is free from cable or other obstructions when the WGA arm is hooked up
don't rule out the issue being from multiples causes either. You replaced a lot of stuff, lot's of opportunity for oversights (I know you know that... and that you've done a good job of checking your work, but still ...)
If you havent't hit these, may be check over the entire WG set up:
1: EBCS unit and the vacuum hoses and the correct connection points
2. your intake hoses including BOV (as I mention before)
I wasn't commenting on the way you have it installed, cause it looks the same as mine (Except no MIVEC for me)
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Over boosting condition could result
Did you check it to see that:
1. flapper door operates freely when the WGA arm is disconnected
2. Is free from cable or other obstructions when the WGA arm is hooked up
don't rule out the issue being from multiples causes either. You replaced a lot of stuff, lot's of opportunity for oversights (I know you know that... and that you've done a good job of checking your work, but still ...)
If you havent't hit these, may be check over the entire WG set up:
1: EBCS unit and the vacuum hoses and the correct connection points
2. your intake hoses including BOV (as I mention before)
Did you check it to see that:
1. flapper door operates freely when the WGA arm is disconnected
2. Is free from cable or other obstructions when the WGA arm is hooked up
don't rule out the issue being from multiples causes either. You replaced a lot of stuff, lot's of opportunity for oversights (I know you know that... and that you've done a good job of checking your work, but still ...)
If you havent't hit these, may be check over the entire WG set up:
1: EBCS unit and the vacuum hoses and the correct connection points
2. your intake hoses including BOV (as I mention before)
However, I decided tonight that I will replace my Megan manifold and O2 housing with my stock parts to rule those out. It will then be obvious that the issue is in the cams/timing.
Tonight I also re-flashed the car to account for the larger cams. I took some logs and its very interesting to see that the car never operates under less load then like 50.
Did u make sure the dowel pin for the mivec gear is lined up? As in take the cover and bolt back off to visually verify? I ran into a problem with a 9 that came in with mivec codes and while it ran and boosted it was exhibiting the same type of problems ur talking about. When I pulled the gear off the dowel pin had been lined up with the gear just slightly off. It ovaled the hole in the gear and prevented the mivec from moving from full advance. It also pushed the dowel pin into the cosworth cam he had. We had to replace the cam and gear, tho it was hard to verify without taking it apart. Another thing I would do since it only takes a few minutes would be to swap in the stock exhaust gear to eliminate any problems with fidanza marking the gear incorrectly. Those r my thoughts on it after reading everything. Hopefully u figure it out. If that doesn't give u any thing drive it a bit to c if any codes come back on then post them up, maybe that will help point to the right direction.
However, I decided tonight that I will replace my Megan manifold and O2 housing with my stock parts to rule those out. It will then be obvious that the issue is in the cams/timing.
I think you're on the right track with the timing and cams, but don't forget the "re-assembly" component, since it is the other "change" in the whole process. I know you've been looking at that part, just don't count it out.
Really research the shop if you end up going to one for help. I'm sure you know things can go just as wrong with that aspect.
Good Luck, we'll be watching for the happy ending on this headache.

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Did u make sure the dowel pin for the mivec gear is lined up? As in take the cover and bolt back off to visually verify? I ran into a problem with a 9 that came in with mivec codes and while it ran and boosted it was exhibiting the same type of problems ur talking about. When I pulled the gear off the dowel pin had been lined up with the gear just slightly off. It ovaled the hole in the gear and prevented the mivec from moving from full advance. It also pushed the dowel pin into the cosworth cam he had. We had to replace the cam and gear, tho it was hard to verify without taking it apart. Another thing I would do since it only takes a few minutes would be to swap in the stock exhaust gear to eliminate any problems with fidanza marking the gear incorrectly. Those r my thoughts on it after reading everything. Hopefully u figure it out. If that doesn't give u any thing drive it a bit to c if any codes come back on then post them up, maybe that will help point to the right direction.
Unless Fidanza has changed their design, he is not 90 deg off. The Fidanza has 2 key holes. (One is for DSM's if I recall correctly) and the one Marked "EVO" is of course for the EVO.
The degree markings for the adjustments are then necessarily at the 3'O'Clock position instead of straight up. I've had them on my VIII for well over 50K miles now.
The degree markings for the adjustments are then necessarily at the 3'O'Clock position instead of straight up. I've had them on my VIII for well over 50K miles now.
See, I said hopefully I am wrong.

Good luck to the OP on figuring this out
I really doubt they'll be a problem with the cams themselves unless they r going flat since the part numbers r correct and from the pics they look good. I think u will find either a problem with ur mivec gear and the dowel pin or a problem with the fidanza gear. The problem really sounds like a timing/mivec issue. Swapping the fidanza gear and inspecting the mivec gear shouldn't take long. Good luck with it man. Just don't worry too much it's just nuts and bolts, when something goes wrong at the shop just swap one part back at a time till u find where u went wrong.
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UPDATE:
So yesterday I spent the day putting the car back to stock. I first replaced both cams back to the stockers, but I left the Fidanza cam gear on (more on that later). Car still has the problem. So next I replaced all my Megan Racing exhaust parts (manifold/O2 housing) with the stockers, and the problem is still there, though I didn't really expect to see a difference since I now convinced that this is a timing problem. I've also learned that to replace the manifold and O2 housing it takes 5 hours (have to pull the radiator, drain oil, etc.) and it only takes me 2 hours now to R&R the cams including bleeding the lifters
So today I am trying my last attempt at fixing it. And honestly this is where my focus should have been all along, as so many of you have pointed out. I am approaching the car as if I am changing the timing belt for the first time. This should allow me to only focus on timing and not worry about things like the cams. If this doesn't work, then I'm taking it somewhere else and it can become they're problem (and they'll charge me for it!).
Standby...
So yesterday I spent the day putting the car back to stock. I first replaced both cams back to the stockers, but I left the Fidanza cam gear on (more on that later). Car still has the problem. So next I replaced all my Megan Racing exhaust parts (manifold/O2 housing) with the stockers, and the problem is still there, though I didn't really expect to see a difference since I now convinced that this is a timing problem. I've also learned that to replace the manifold and O2 housing it takes 5 hours (have to pull the radiator, drain oil, etc.) and it only takes me 2 hours now to R&R the cams including bleeding the lifters

So today I am trying my last attempt at fixing it. And honestly this is where my focus should have been all along, as so many of you have pointed out. I am approaching the car as if I am changing the timing belt for the first time. This should allow me to only focus on timing and not worry about things like the cams. If this doesn't work, then I'm taking it somewhere else and it can become they're problem (and they'll charge me for it!).
Standby...
Hi,
Just an observation. Your Aftermarket Exhaust cam gear is 90 degrees off.
If you look at the pin it is off center from the mark.
Another indication is the fact that at the bolt, the EVO marking casting is sideways.
Also the timing advance and retard marks are to the right, not at the top like others I have seen.
Like I said, just an observation. Hopefully I am wrong.
http://www.amazon.com/Fidanza-961999.../dp/B000F3IJ46
As you can see there are degree marks at top of cam gear. there are two other marks 90 degrees from that.
What throws the whole thing off is the two stupid dowel holes. Now we know why the new Fidanza gears only have one notch in them.
Just an observation. Your Aftermarket Exhaust cam gear is 90 degrees off.
If you look at the pin it is off center from the mark.
Another indication is the fact that at the bolt, the EVO marking casting is sideways.
Also the timing advance and retard marks are to the right, not at the top like others I have seen.
Like I said, just an observation. Hopefully I am wrong.
http://www.amazon.com/Fidanza-961999.../dp/B000F3IJ46
As you can see there are degree marks at top of cam gear. there are two other marks 90 degrees from that.
What throws the whole thing off is the two stupid dowel holes. Now we know why the new Fidanza gears only have one notch in them.
Last edited by D-VO; Aug 14, 2010 at 09:17 AM.
Well , I don't know much about the mivec so I can only speculate. To me looking at the cams, they are off. Unless you have great valve overlap. Might be the mivec is stuck. BMW , Ferrari, maserati all have a similar setup and the variator(mivec) can get mechanically locked. Maybe this is what is happening. But good luck to you,OP
UPDATE:
So yesterday I spent the day putting the car back to stock. I first replaced both cams back to the stockers, but I left the Fidanza cam gear on (more on that later). Car still has the problem. So next I replaced all my Megan Racing exhaust parts (manifold/O2 housing) with the stockers, and the problem is still there, though I didn't really expect to see a difference since I now convinced that this is a timing problem. I've also learned that to replace the manifold and O2 housing it takes 5 hours (have to pull the radiator, drain oil, etc.) and it only takes me 2 hours now to R&R the cams including bleeding the lifters
So today I am trying my last attempt at fixing it. And honestly this is where my focus should have been all along, as so many of you have pointed out. I am approaching the car as if I am changing the timing belt for the first time. This should allow me to only focus on timing and not worry about things like the cams. If this doesn't work, then I'm taking it somewhere else and it can become they're problem (and they'll charge me for it!).
Standby...
So yesterday I spent the day putting the car back to stock. I first replaced both cams back to the stockers, but I left the Fidanza cam gear on (more on that later). Car still has the problem. So next I replaced all my Megan Racing exhaust parts (manifold/O2 housing) with the stockers, and the problem is still there, though I didn't really expect to see a difference since I now convinced that this is a timing problem. I've also learned that to replace the manifold and O2 housing it takes 5 hours (have to pull the radiator, drain oil, etc.) and it only takes me 2 hours now to R&R the cams including bleeding the lifters

So today I am trying my last attempt at fixing it. And honestly this is where my focus should have been all along, as so many of you have pointed out. I am approaching the car as if I am changing the timing belt for the first time. This should allow me to only focus on timing and not worry about things like the cams. If this doesn't work, then I'm taking it somewhere else and it can become they're problem (and they'll charge me for it!).
Standby...
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EUREKA! I FOUND IT! THE CAR LIVES AGAIN!
I've been waiting for that Eureka! moment for two weeks and I finally got it today. I finally figured out what the problem was! As I mentioned this morning, I approached the car today as if I was replacing the timing belt for the first time, so the first thing I did this morning was take off the timing belt (to put it back on). As soon as I took off the lower timing cover - BAM! I found my problem - and it wasn't "timing" per say! Here is what I found:

Do you see it? As soon as I saw this, I immediately saw that I had installed the crank sensor pane flipped! I never noticed the little "V" cut into the 11 o'clock position marking TDC, and I figured it was symmetric (never-mind the belt marks on the pane indicating the correct orientation. So when I assembled everything back, I had inadvertently installed that pane thing, which tells the car where the crank is, wrong. This explains the massive retardation of the timing - the ECU, per the crank sensor, thought the crank was later that it really was and was firing the spark plug according, which ended up being too late.
Here is how I had it installed:

And it should be like this:

As soon as I saw this, I knew what I had done and what exactly I needed to do to fix it. And of course, I realized that I also spent the entire day yesterday re-installing all my stock parts. So I decided since I had the timing belt off, I might as well re-install the Cosworth cams - so I did. Took two hours and let me tell you. Having done 3 installs of cams now, it is so much easier with the timing belt off!
And I spend most of my time scraping off old RTV then actually replacing the cams.
I decided to reinstall my Megan exhaust parts later as I didn't feel like spending another 4 - 5 hours removing the entire turbo system.
So I put the whole car back together, flashed it for the larger cams, and viola! It runs again, rather amazingly now I might add! It spools much quicker and pulls much harder. I can certainly fell the difference of the cams and Fidanza cam gear. In a month or so I'll add the manifold and O2 housing. Now I just need to tweak my tune to eliminate my knock at high RPMs.
I now extend my sincerest gratitude to the EvoM community. I greatly appreciated all the comments, advice, suggestions, thoughts and encouragement. Thank you! However my ultimate gratitude is to my wife and family who supported me 100% through this whole ordeal. My wife never once complained or expressed any resentment or frustration at this self-inflicted crisis and fully supported all my countless hours in the garage and online searching the forums and web for information. I've been like a ghost to my family for 2 weeks and I know they are, as I am, excited for me to get back to living!
Thank you all again and remember...
WHEN YOU REINSTALL THE CRANKSHAFT SENSOR PANE, MAKE SURE YOU INSTALL IT WITH THE "V" CUT IN THE 11 O'CLOCK POSITION!!!
I've been waiting for that Eureka! moment for two weeks and I finally got it today. I finally figured out what the problem was! As I mentioned this morning, I approached the car today as if I was replacing the timing belt for the first time, so the first thing I did this morning was take off the timing belt (to put it back on). As soon as I took off the lower timing cover - BAM! I found my problem - and it wasn't "timing" per say! Here is what I found:

Do you see it? As soon as I saw this, I immediately saw that I had installed the crank sensor pane flipped! I never noticed the little "V" cut into the 11 o'clock position marking TDC, and I figured it was symmetric (never-mind the belt marks on the pane indicating the correct orientation. So when I assembled everything back, I had inadvertently installed that pane thing, which tells the car where the crank is, wrong. This explains the massive retardation of the timing - the ECU, per the crank sensor, thought the crank was later that it really was and was firing the spark plug according, which ended up being too late.
Here is how I had it installed:

And it should be like this:

As soon as I saw this, I knew what I had done and what exactly I needed to do to fix it. And of course, I realized that I also spent the entire day yesterday re-installing all my stock parts. So I decided since I had the timing belt off, I might as well re-install the Cosworth cams - so I did. Took two hours and let me tell you. Having done 3 installs of cams now, it is so much easier with the timing belt off!
And I spend most of my time scraping off old RTV then actually replacing the cams. I decided to reinstall my Megan exhaust parts later as I didn't feel like spending another 4 - 5 hours removing the entire turbo system.
So I put the whole car back together, flashed it for the larger cams, and viola! It runs again, rather amazingly now I might add! It spools much quicker and pulls much harder. I can certainly fell the difference of the cams and Fidanza cam gear. In a month or so I'll add the manifold and O2 housing. Now I just need to tweak my tune to eliminate my knock at high RPMs.
I now extend my sincerest gratitude to the EvoM community. I greatly appreciated all the comments, advice, suggestions, thoughts and encouragement. Thank you! However my ultimate gratitude is to my wife and family who supported me 100% through this whole ordeal. My wife never once complained or expressed any resentment or frustration at this self-inflicted crisis and fully supported all my countless hours in the garage and online searching the forums and web for information. I've been like a ghost to my family for 2 weeks and I know they are, as I am, excited for me to get back to living!
Thank you all again and remember...
WHEN YOU REINSTALL THE CRANKSHAFT SENSOR PANE, MAKE SURE YOU INSTALL IT WITH THE "V" CUT IN THE 11 O'CLOCK POSITION!!!




