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50k miles of alcohol injection and no cracked pistons! Cheap alky kits exposed.

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50k miles of alcohol injection and no cracked pistons! Cheap alky kits exposed.

 
Old Aug 24, 2010, 06:28 AM
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50k miles of alcohol injection and no cracked pistons! Cheap alky kits exposed.

This is a direct response to [email protected]'s post https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...cracked+piston

I ran alcohol injection on my evo8 for 50,000 miles and here's what my pistons look like:



I have a lot of respect for Mike, but the point I want to get across to everyone that read Mike's
thread is that it is grossly generalized! There are two kinds of alky kits out there:
-ones that are cheap and could very well blow your motor up (especially if they fail)
-ones that will work well and serve you well for years on end and no they won't blow up your motor (if they fail)

EDUCATION is what keeps your motor healthy. Using the wrong kits is like playing with fire! There are really only three things you need to know about alky kits:
-precise, consistent spray pattern
-failsafes that work
-reliably add 50whp/50wtq


PRECISION
Ok from the top! Why do some alky kits cause pistons to crack? Because they do not consistently spray alcohol(and/or water) into your entire engine, evenly. The best way to have an even distribution is with consistent fluid pressure. This is NOT rocket science, right? Fuel pressure from your stock fuel system is consistent, so should the alky you're spraying in on top of it.

Most of the cheaper kits on the market are progressive pump speed kits, meaning as they start spraying on the pump kicks on, pressure builds up and then it starts spraying. Kind of hard for a nice fine mist to spray into the engine when its dribbling out of the pump eh? Then, when you let off the gas, the pump turns off and pressure slowly falls off in the line and fluid slowly stops spraying out. Does this sound precise to you? (note: the pump mike pictured in his post is a progressive pump speed kit!)

The right way:
Other kits on the market have a pump that is *always* pumping (remind you of your fuel pump in your gas tank?) and output consistent pressure *all* the time. Sound good? Yup! Now, they also have a valve located very near the engine that turns on and off when you want it to inject (sound kinda like fuel injectors?). With the full pressure fuel pump running behind this valve, you can very precisely control the fuel injection.

Here's a few videos clearly demonstrating the difference between these two different types of kits. They were originally taken by Abner aka SlowCar but I can't seem to get a hold of him, so I rehosted them on youtube.

Note the difference between the nozzle on the left (high speed valve) and the nozzle on the right (progressive pump). Pretend the green lights are when you are WOT.
[youtube]c0FYGkMX1rg[/youtube]

[youtube]KZRI7WZHggQ[/youtube]

[youtube]8aoqhxQMtqA[/youtube]

Think about those nozzles dribbling away when you're trying to run 30psi of boost (on onset) or just let off the throttle, might cause problems sooner or later eh? The kits that can accurately control when you want (and don't want) fuel injecting into your engine can reliably add power to your engine for years on end!


FAILSAFES

Ok next up, failsafes! This info has been a sticky in the Water/Alcohol Injection forum for a long time, but its not like anyone reads those things anyways right?

Here's what happens when a well-setup alky kit with a well-setup failsafe when a problem happens (yup, even good kits have problems). This is a WOT run on a dyno, failsafe kicks in at ~5000rpm, AFR drops to a 100% safe pump gas level (and your pistons don't crack!):


Furthermore, boost drops to a safe level:


There is no question, lots of things can happen: too little flow, too much flow, zero flow, low fluid level, loss of power, etc etc etc and if your alky kit is setup properly, your engine will SURVIVE!

More info on failafes here:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/wa...ther-last.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/wa...failsafes.html



POWER

Lastly, why bother running alky injection? +50whp/+50wtq, pretty easily.

Here's my stock turbo setup with and without alcohol injection (with tuning on both) 358whp vs 318whp:


Here's my BBK setup - 384whp vs 432whp:



SUMMARY
Alky kits don't caused cracked pistons, CHEAP alky kits cause cracked pistons. I used it for 50,000 miles with tremendous success, and so can you!

side note: e85 is pretty awesome (in some ways better, some ways worse than alky injection), but not everyone can get it, let's leave discussion of it out of this thread please



***edit***
Just wanted to add a follow-up to my original post about aweful installs causing problems:

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...k-horrify.html

Also, GREAT discussion going on in this thread between the two most popular (IMHO) kit manufacturers on the market: Aquamist and AEM. Both have great points and decent products, if you are an alky kit manufacturer or user, please join in!

Last edited by scheides; Sep 21, 2010 at 09:33 AM.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 06:33 AM
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Reserved for some updates, I might need to add some more info here sometime.

For now, I'll finish that serious post above with a note about how FUN alky injection is! High octane added to any setup adds massive powerband and the car goes from fun to waaaahooo once you've tuned it. Make no mistake, I made the above post because I love going fast!

Last edited by scheides; Aug 24, 2010 at 06:51 AM.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 06:48 AM
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Very good info. Those vids really do show a hell of a difference. Way to sum it up man.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 06:55 AM
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cheap alky kits AND bad installs...
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 06:56 AM
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Great post
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by tephra View Post
cheap alky kits AND bad installs...
You know, I don't have any good pics of bad installs and this is a real problem for some people. If anyone has a good pic/example, please post up!
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 07:10 AM
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Thanks for new thread. 2yrs on Meth here. No problems
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 07:12 AM
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Ok so I think everyone has been dancing around this but maybe if people start naming the kits that are bad or blew their motor up we would see a theme. Either forcing those companies to step their game up or going out of business when the word gets out that their kit is prone to failures.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 07:21 AM
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Thanks for posting the info! It got me thinking about the pump in my kit..
I have an AEM kit (tephra map switching failsafe)... I noticed on the AEM website there is an upgraded pump available:
http://www.aemelectronics.com/recirc...ction-pump-698

Does anyone know if this pump is progressive? Does recirculation-style mean continuous pressure like the type you recommend?
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Green Meanie View Post
Ok so I think everyone has been dancing around this but maybe if people start naming the kits that are bad or blew their motor up we would see a theme. Either forcing those companies to step their game up or going out of business when the word gets out that their kit is prone to failures.
High five! Knowing what to look for is absolutely key, and the reason I made this thread! The kit (and the only brand) I used and recommend is fairly obvious (see links in my post), if you have any questions specifically please PM me. I'm not a vendor so I have nothing to gain/lose, but I don't really want this thread getting *too* muddy
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 07:39 AM
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I think that meth injection is like a gun. People kill motors not meth injection. It has been summed up with poor installation, lack of maintience (to car and kit), and tooning. If people let their oil get washed out or are dumping gas in general bad things can happen lol. Or if there is no fail safe in place and you run your car hard with out relizeing that you are out of meth and your afrs are through the roof (where is your wideband?)...

I have met and heard of people blown their engines engines while cruising at 40mph with virtually no load to people attempting to top out 5th gear and boom. People blow motors using meth, pump gas, and E85.

I have been runing meth for about 40,000mi. I love it and will run it on my next motor when the time comes. lol
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 08:58 AM
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My first meth install back in 2002 on my VW Getta was poor. Not one solder, no check valve used pump. It was a used stage 1 snow performance kit. I changed the pump once on that car. Had meth on that one foe about 40k before I sold it and bought the Evo. I did all my trial and error on the VW.

I've had meth on this car from 20k till present. Just hit 90k a month ago.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 10:12 AM
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scheides,

Thanks for make this thread, It goes a long way to give a more balanced view on [email protected]'s "crack piston" thread.

I hope peole and manufacturers will treat WMI more seriously now than before. It is is good power tool, but must treat it with respect or it will ruin your engine in no time.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 10:37 AM
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Great thread you sexy bastard!!!

-Jalal
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tephra View Post
cheap alky kits AND bad installs...
the very reason nos had a bad rep
when done properly and set up properly no issue
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