New setup won't start, help?
Apr 15, 2011, 10:56 AM
#1
New setup won't start, help?
As title says:
here's whats going on,
-turn the key to acc and the fuel pump doesn't prime like it supposed to.
-crank the car over and it cranks just fine, pump turns on and builds fuel pressure
-rpm's on dash don't move when cranking
-no cel's
-inspected plugs and in cylinders and there is fuel getting to it
-cranked with a coil outside of car and it showed it was getting spark (no plug but we set the exposed plug wire to frame and it arked, looked weak, but arked regardless
-We have seen a couple back fires maybe 4 total, one through intake mani egr port (magnus blocks it off but you can see it through the gasket)
-logged on evoscan and timing looks fine at cranking about 13 degrees, rpm signal, and all other sensors are showing movement and input.
-replaced crank angle sensor with new one to eliminate that and verified 12 volt to it and 4.98 volts from it to ecu. crank disk is also new.
-trouble shot fuel pump relays and re checked main harness to see if we missed some grounds or some connection without anything found.
-Immobilizer suspended
Here's what has basically been done to the car;
evo 9 mivec head on 2.4 block long rod. ported head, magnus, cosi m3 cams with supertech duals. clearance has been clayed to ensure timing is good and no valve hit. Timing is set up w/out balance shaft and both gears are retarded .5 tooth (3.5 degrees). New denso plugs 1 range colder for evo 9. Spoolinup cop. On speed density. Car ran perfect before without problems. Only sensors not used were for magnus install, fpr, evap and egr all bypassed in ecu. Fuel system upgraded included double pumper, main pump to factory wiring, second pump on hobs switch from battery. Fuel pressure riser with 6an feed and return from factory lines and magnus rail.
My thoughts are that something is stopping the pump from priming and is also preventing the car from starting. If the pump was coming on I would think it was a matter of adjusting the ipw for cranking for the increased airflow and displacement. What other ideas do you guys have? I have been messing with this for the last month and am out of ideas.
Thanks in advance-
Rob
here's whats going on,
-turn the key to acc and the fuel pump doesn't prime like it supposed to.
-crank the car over and it cranks just fine, pump turns on and builds fuel pressure
-rpm's on dash don't move when cranking
-no cel's
-inspected plugs and in cylinders and there is fuel getting to it
-cranked with a coil outside of car and it showed it was getting spark (no plug but we set the exposed plug wire to frame and it arked, looked weak, but arked regardless
-We have seen a couple back fires maybe 4 total, one through intake mani egr port (magnus blocks it off but you can see it through the gasket)
-logged on evoscan and timing looks fine at cranking about 13 degrees, rpm signal, and all other sensors are showing movement and input.
-replaced crank angle sensor with new one to eliminate that and verified 12 volt to it and 4.98 volts from it to ecu. crank disk is also new.
-trouble shot fuel pump relays and re checked main harness to see if we missed some grounds or some connection without anything found.
-Immobilizer suspended
Here's what has basically been done to the car;
evo 9 mivec head on 2.4 block long rod. ported head, magnus, cosi m3 cams with supertech duals. clearance has been clayed to ensure timing is good and no valve hit. Timing is set up w/out balance shaft and both gears are retarded .5 tooth (3.5 degrees). New denso plugs 1 range colder for evo 9. Spoolinup cop. On speed density. Car ran perfect before without problems. Only sensors not used were for magnus install, fpr, evap and egr all bypassed in ecu. Fuel system upgraded included double pumper, main pump to factory wiring, second pump on hobs switch from battery. Fuel pressure riser with 6an feed and return from factory lines and magnus rail.
My thoughts are that something is stopping the pump from priming and is also preventing the car from starting. If the pump was coming on I would think it was a matter of adjusting the ipw for cranking for the increased airflow and displacement. What other ideas do you guys have? I have been messing with this for the last month and am out of ideas.
Thanks in advance-
Rob
Apr 15, 2011, 12:02 PM
#3
Evolved Member
well to add my 0.02 you sure everything in the fuel pump assy is hooked up correctly, feed line is hooked up properly, the connector for the fuel pump is properly connected, simple things like that would keep it from starting...umm the fuel pump sock is properly fastened to bottom of fuel pump??
Apr 15, 2011, 02:44 PM
#5
well to add my 0.02 you sure everything in the fuel pump assy is hooked up correctly, feed line is hooked up properly, the connector for the fuel pump is properly connected, simple things like that would keep it from starting...umm the fuel pump sock is properly fastened to bottom of fuel pump??
The pump itself isn't kicking on to prime thelines when you cycle the acc with the keys. The pump will turn on when you start cranking the starter.
When I pulled all the plugs out and inspected them, they look brand new like they were just put in. This is tellin me that it really isn't getting spark. So no spark or weak spark and no pump priming...
cam pos sensors are aligned correctly but wouldn't it still run just poorely if one of them was dead?
If itsbackfiring in intake mani I would think timing was off but not sure how it could be with the engine and cam combo without eating a valve. Cam pos sensors then?
Rob
Apr 16, 2011, 09:41 AM
#6
Evolved Member
well so you know man, the fuel doesnt prime until you put the key in the on position, in accessory thats just it turns on your lights, radio etc...but doesnt prime the fuel pump. well you can do the arc test, pull a coil and put the coil boot by a ground(engine head, etc) and turn it to on with each cyl to check for spark... my guess either bad coil boot, or bad coil...see if you can swap with another ignition system from someone to test it...if you lived in so cali i would say swing by i have my stocker in my backyard sittin there. might be a dumb question but all the fuses and relays are good, tested them with a test light?
Trending Topics
Apr 16, 2011, 10:16 AM
#8
I have done the arc test and have tried both my tolck coil and my cop. I am getting spark, I think it is either not firing right or not injecting right based on a sensor bad or something wrong with the physical timing. Does anyone know which cam sensor tells the ecu what? As in fire injectors or coils?
Rob
Apr 16, 2011, 10:20 AM
#9
Evolved Member
all the cam sensor does is relay to the ecu through voltage where the exhaust cam is in proportion to the timing of the vehicle( meaning the timing belt) i believe theres a relay that powers the fuel system, that from there puts power to the injectors, now the injectors are secure in the intake mani right, injector connectors pushed in fully with the clips holdin them in right...
Apr 16, 2011, 11:52 AM
#10
We pulled all the relays and tested them individually. Clips are on and injectors are spraying fuel. Each spark plug had gas on it/smelled like gas. There was a visual pooling of fuel on piston tops. I'm thinking maybe one of the sensors is bad and its causing the spark to fire at the wrong time.
Apr 16, 2011, 05:35 PM
#11
Funny I came across this thread. We are having the same problem on an Evo 8 we just finished up. The same problems to a T. Good luck man, I've been banging my head against the wall for 3 days with this. I finished a 2.4L Evo 9 last week, and it started first try. Go figure.
Apr 16, 2011, 05:51 PM
#12
sound like you got fuel in the event you don't and you need to prime the pump-- I did after a recent install. your going to have to do it old style, pull the line from the pump to the injectors and put another line in its place on the pump and SUCK until you get fuel. pull the line, install the original connector and you should be good to go..
Apr 17, 2011, 01:20 AM
#14
The fuel system is working just fine as in getting fuel pressure in the lines and on the rail. The pump is just not doing the short prim pulse when you turn the key to the ON position. As soon as I start cranking the starter, the pump turns on. I have a fuel lab fpr with a gauge mounted to it and I have plenty of fuel pressure.
There has to be something stopping it from firing the spark at the right time hence the weird back fire seen through the intake manifold gasket. That would signify the timing was off. I don't see how it could be a physical timing issue being since it is a long rod motor with 280 cams. For anyone who hasn't first hand seen a long rod stroke cycle, the piston goes all the way to the deck, and a 280 cam moves the valves a long ways- point made, if my physical timing was off by more than a tooth or two, the valve would hit the piston.
I was making the point with the pump not hitting it's priming cycle because that to me is a somewhat related problem. I think that there has to be a sensor (fill in the blank) that is preventing the pump from cycling which is also related to the car not starting. The ecu isn't seeing something that it needs to be seeing and is not allowing the car to start ie, no priming of pump and poor or weak spark/wrong phase of combustion cycle.
We have tested the relays, I don't have a cel, and I tried turning the immobilizer off.
What's the valet mode? as in tephra mod options? That wouldn't stop the car from starting, it would limit the drivability of it.
Rob
There has to be something stopping it from firing the spark at the right time hence the weird back fire seen through the intake manifold gasket. That would signify the timing was off. I don't see how it could be a physical timing issue being since it is a long rod motor with 280 cams. For anyone who hasn't first hand seen a long rod stroke cycle, the piston goes all the way to the deck, and a 280 cam moves the valves a long ways- point made, if my physical timing was off by more than a tooth or two, the valve would hit the piston.
I was making the point with the pump not hitting it's priming cycle because that to me is a somewhat related problem. I think that there has to be a sensor (fill in the blank) that is preventing the pump from cycling which is also related to the car not starting. The ecu isn't seeing something that it needs to be seeing and is not allowing the car to start ie, no priming of pump and poor or weak spark/wrong phase of combustion cycle.
We have tested the relays, I don't have a cel, and I tried turning the immobilizer off.
What's the valet mode? as in tephra mod options? That wouldn't stop the car from starting, it would limit the drivability of it.
Rob
Apr 17, 2011, 07:11 AM
#15
Valley mode is a tephra mod that when setup can allow you to make your car enter limp mode. With a specific rpm limit/speed limit. When not setup it will not allow the car to start. When I changed over to v7 it automatically engaged. This prevented me from starting my car. It seems that you have checked virtually everything else. I hope this helps. Good luck.
Turn the ignition to in and hold the throttle petal to the floor for 10 sec. You should see a cel flash and then let off. Turn the key to off and try starting it.
Turn the ignition to in and hold the throttle petal to the floor for 10 sec. You should see a cel flash and then let off. Turn the key to off and try starting it.