Has anyone actually pulled a FP turbo apart before?
Jun 19, 2011, 05:53 PM
#17
They are FP stamped, i was told that both the turbine shafts/wheels and compressor wheels are made in China. Whether that is true or not, that is something we will never know.
I'm told the reason that we are never given compressor maps for these compressors is because the design is copied, and just enlarged to whatever size is needed. Makes sense.
If you like i can try and get the exhaust wheels weighed.
The turbo shop commented about how similar the design of the exhaust wheel is to the GT30 series.
It's my understanding that the GT30 series turbo's have a 60mm exhaust wheel, and the GT35 series have a 68mm exhaust wheel.
Thank you Kracka
Jun 19, 2011, 06:18 PM
#19
I'll put pics up after work.
They are FP stamped, i was told that both the turbine shafts/wheels and compressor wheels are made in China. Whether that is true or not, that is something we will never know.
I'm told the reason that we are never given compressor maps for these compressors is because the design is copied, and just enlarged to whatever size is needed. Makes sense.
If you like i can try and get the exhaust wheels weighed.
The turbo shop commented about how similar the design of the exhaust wheel is to the GT30 series.
It's my understanding that the GT30 series turbo's have a 60mm exhaust wheel, and the GT35 series have a 68mm exhaust wheel.
Thank you Kracka
They are FP stamped, i was told that both the turbine shafts/wheels and compressor wheels are made in China. Whether that is true or not, that is something we will never know.
I'm told the reason that we are never given compressor maps for these compressors is because the design is copied, and just enlarged to whatever size is needed. Makes sense.
If you like i can try and get the exhaust wheels weighed.
The turbo shop commented about how similar the design of the exhaust wheel is to the GT30 series.
It's my understanding that the GT30 series turbo's have a 60mm exhaust wheel, and the GT35 series have a 68mm exhaust wheel.
Thank you Kracka
Jun 19, 2011, 06:51 PM
#20
Evolving Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Garrett GT30 turbines are ~ 59.9mm major diameter and 54.9mm minor diameter so 84 trim .
The GT35 one is ~ 68mm major and can't remember its minor diameter but its also 84 trim .
Garrett usually makes performance petrol spec turbines in Inconnel but the diesel spec ones in some less expensive and lesser temp spec material .
They are called UHP as in GT35UHP meaning ultra high pressure ratio for petrol fired and HP or high pressure ratio for diesel applications .
The HP ones appear to have thicker section blades and not a smooth a surface finish , diferent colour too .
The GT30 turbine I think has only been used in Garrets GT25BB based center section but GT35 ones are available with larger/longer shafts in plain and ball bearing to suit larger core GT series turbos - like what GT4088Rs get .
It occurs to me that it wouldn't be very difficult to get a CNC mill to scale up any compressor wheel you had the dimensions programmed in for , same for any number of blades you wanted it to end up with . Hmmmm .
A .
The GT35 one is ~ 68mm major and can't remember its minor diameter but its also 84 trim .
Garrett usually makes performance petrol spec turbines in Inconnel but the diesel spec ones in some less expensive and lesser temp spec material .
They are called UHP as in GT35UHP meaning ultra high pressure ratio for petrol fired and HP or high pressure ratio for diesel applications .
The HP ones appear to have thicker section blades and not a smooth a surface finish , diferent colour too .
The GT30 turbine I think has only been used in Garrets GT25BB based center section but GT35 ones are available with larger/longer shafts in plain and ball bearing to suit larger core GT series turbos - like what GT4088Rs get .
It occurs to me that it wouldn't be very difficult to get a CNC mill to scale up any compressor wheel you had the dimensions programmed in for , same for any number of blades you wanted it to end up with . Hmmmm .
A .
Jun 19, 2011, 07:13 PM
#21
Them being made in China is pretty heavy speculation. FP seems to be tied in with US manufacturers, including Garrett, Tial, and Comp Cams.
Rescaling compressors wouldn't really work, IMO. There are going to be scaling issues with strength and aerodynamics and simply scaling a wheel up and down would probably end in either extremely poor performance wheels, or wheels that come apart. Neither has been the case on the FP turbochargers. All FP turbo failures we have seen on HTA stuff seems to be simply oiling issues on the Mitsu hybrids. People have pushed the HTA stuff to 45+ psi and have shown they perform extremely well for a given size. I do not believe the "rescaling" thing at all other then possibly when the size change is kept minimal, 68-71mm for example. At that small change, you could design a wheel to fit both diameters easily and still have it be strong and aerodynamically sound.
But hey, if you really want to believe it, there is a Taiwan company on Ebay selling billet compressor wheels for just about everything. Pick one up and let us know how it goes. I don't see any signs of balancing being done in the pictures they have up though...
Rescaling compressors wouldn't really work, IMO. There are going to be scaling issues with strength and aerodynamics and simply scaling a wheel up and down would probably end in either extremely poor performance wheels, or wheels that come apart. Neither has been the case on the FP turbochargers. All FP turbo failures we have seen on HTA stuff seems to be simply oiling issues on the Mitsu hybrids. People have pushed the HTA stuff to 45+ psi and have shown they perform extremely well for a given size. I do not believe the "rescaling" thing at all other then possibly when the size change is kept minimal, 68-71mm for example. At that small change, you could design a wheel to fit both diameters easily and still have it be strong and aerodynamically sound.
But hey, if you really want to believe it, there is a Taiwan company on Ebay selling billet compressor wheels for just about everything. Pick one up and let us know how it goes. I don't see any signs of balancing being done in the pictures they have up though...
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Jun 19, 2011 at 07:21 PM.
Jun 19, 2011, 08:49 PM
#22
It's just what i was told.
While i was at the workshop, i was handed a billet wheel that looked almost exactly like mine, but much bigger.
This was for a diesel truck turbo, produced by garrett. It was old, nothing new.
I know Borg Warner has been making billet wheels for a long time.
While i was at the workshop, i was handed a billet wheel that looked almost exactly like mine, but much bigger.
This was for a diesel truck turbo, produced by garrett. It was old, nothing new.
I know Borg Warner has been making billet wheels for a long time.
Jun 19, 2011, 10:04 PM
#24
RSMike, I could see the Chinese and Taiwan companies scaling and spitting out all kinds of variants based on one or two baseline wheels. But things like hub size, hub profile, blade thickness, blade angles, etc. can have very subtle changes that can have a big impact on performance that may not be picked up easily by the naked eye.
FWIW though, I have a Garrett engineering document on a billet 11-blade compressor wheel for a diesel powered garbage truck dated back from like 2002. Dimensionally and airflow wise, it is very similar (identical) to the "new" GTX4294R. The wheel was designed to reduce noise more then anything else...but in the document they claim a 10% increase in flow and considerably higher P/R operation as secondary benefits.
But hey, last time I brought this up, somebody called me a liar and that the GTX4294R was designed in 2007 as all new technology. Interestingly enough, back in 2007 a friend was informally asked if he wanted to test out a new Garrett GT42R that was based on the exact compressor wheel from above... It never panned out, but I do find it an interesting situation.
Point being, yeah, I believe all this new billet technology is a good 10+ years old for the most part and has already existed in other markets. I also think the HTA stuff is likely a result of this older tech and isn't a proprietary FP design. I don't think it is just randomly scaled though and I believe lots of engineering ***BY SOMEBODY*** went into their wheels.
Also of interest, check out Tials Porsche turbo upgrades. They have an "aplha28" upgrade that includes a custom Tial housing and a 68mm compressor wheel that flow 47 pounds/min. Same airflow as the HTA68... Oh, and FP will do the HTA68 upgrade to a GT2860RS... Considering how Garrett sells Tial products, and Tial sells FP stuff...and FP seems to be coming up with some kick *** high end Garrett offerings, I think the engineering is coming from Garrett on the HTA wheels. Not really a stretch either as the TR30 is old stuff and has had tons of different compressor variants, all being billet.
That is just a guess though. FP very well could be clean sheet designing their wheels. With the software that is out there for turbo design and the level of testing we've seen from FP, they could possibly come up with even better wheels then Garrett for this particular market as they are highly cued into a specific engine platform where Garrett must design for wider operating conditions.
FWIW though, I have a Garrett engineering document on a billet 11-blade compressor wheel for a diesel powered garbage truck dated back from like 2002. Dimensionally and airflow wise, it is very similar (identical) to the "new" GTX4294R. The wheel was designed to reduce noise more then anything else...but in the document they claim a 10% increase in flow and considerably higher P/R operation as secondary benefits.
But hey, last time I brought this up, somebody called me a liar and that the GTX4294R was designed in 2007 as all new technology. Interestingly enough, back in 2007 a friend was informally asked if he wanted to test out a new Garrett GT42R that was based on the exact compressor wheel from above... It never panned out, but I do find it an interesting situation.
Point being, yeah, I believe all this new billet technology is a good 10+ years old for the most part and has already existed in other markets. I also think the HTA stuff is likely a result of this older tech and isn't a proprietary FP design. I don't think it is just randomly scaled though and I believe lots of engineering ***BY SOMEBODY*** went into their wheels.
Also of interest, check out Tials Porsche turbo upgrades. They have an "aplha28" upgrade that includes a custom Tial housing and a 68mm compressor wheel that flow 47 pounds/min. Same airflow as the HTA68... Oh, and FP will do the HTA68 upgrade to a GT2860RS... Considering how Garrett sells Tial products, and Tial sells FP stuff...and FP seems to be coming up with some kick *** high end Garrett offerings, I think the engineering is coming from Garrett on the HTA wheels. Not really a stretch either as the TR30 is old stuff and has had tons of different compressor variants, all being billet.
That is just a guess though. FP very well could be clean sheet designing their wheels. With the software that is out there for turbo design and the level of testing we've seen from FP, they could possibly come up with even better wheels then Garrett for this particular market as they are highly cued into a specific engine platform where Garrett must design for wider operating conditions.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Jun 19, 2011 at 10:15 PM.
Jun 19, 2011, 10:07 PM
#25
RSMike, you need to quit making statements like they are fact when they are pure speculation. Stick to what you can actually demonstrate, which is apparently no more than "it looks like.... to me". You don't have a clue where FP internal parts come from. FP would be dumb to publicize where they have their parts made, since there is already a cottage industry in copying FP parts...
Jun 19, 2011, 10:22 PM
#26
RSMike, you need to quit making statements like they are fact when they are pure speculation. Stick to what you can actually demonstrate, which is apparently no more than "it looks like.... to me". You don't have a clue where FP internal parts come from. FP would be dumb to publicize where they have their parts made, since there is already a cottage industry in copying FP parts...
This is just what i was told at the time by PROFESSIONALS in the INDUSTRY.
Pics as promised
Thrust washer.
FP thrust washer vs Melett thrust washer (right). This is what they use in Rally Car TD05 rebuilds
exhaust and compressor pics
CHRA parts
damage to shaft
Cheers, Mike
Jun 19, 2011, 10:31 PM
#27
Evolved Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 964
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jun 20, 2011, 10:15 AM
#29
This blows my mind. I know for a fact that the FP turbo components are not made in China. Robert has his own machine shop here in the states that make all of his parts. You are correct about the cams being made by comp though. Nothing that Robert sells is made overseas.
I know that FP is not a vender anymore here on evom but I think it is still important to not spread stuff about products that are not true. This is likely the reason that FP dropped their vender account because of people on the forums spreading stupid rumors that are not true. A speculation is an accusation of something that is not true, period. Why do you think David gets so pissed here on the forums and some of the other venders? There is so much shiz swinging here on the forums it is not even funny.
Forums are used to educate like individuals. Educate meaning with correct information, this is not correct and shouldn't be looked at as such. Out of all the people on this forum, if you listen to anyone, listen when I say that this is a load of crap and don't call your machine shop "PROs" since they are wrong...
Mikey
I know that FP is not a vender anymore here on evom but I think it is still important to not spread stuff about products that are not true. This is likely the reason that FP dropped their vender account because of people on the forums spreading stupid rumors that are not true. A speculation is an accusation of something that is not true, period. Why do you think David gets so pissed here on the forums and some of the other venders? There is so much shiz swinging here on the forums it is not even funny.
Forums are used to educate like individuals. Educate meaning with correct information, this is not correct and shouldn't be looked at as such. Out of all the people on this forum, if you listen to anyone, listen when I say that this is a load of crap and don't call your machine shop "PROs" since they are wrong...
Mikey
Last edited by Mikey@Spec-Ops; Jun 20, 2011 at 10:41 AM.