fp black on 91????
I dont have to provide any data, English Racing just did it for me. I'm not trying to make the Black look bad. I don't run a BBK, I run a bigger turbo than the black, GT3582R. My argument is that even 20~ extra HP is not worth the AT LEAST 600 rpm loss in spool- it doesn't make sense to me, sorry. You aren't going to convince me that a Black is a better setup than the green/BBK on 91.
Fred
Fred
If you care so much about spool, why do you have a 3582? Also, since you do have a 3582, when does it hit full boost? The BLACK almost flows about the same as the 3582 and spool much faster. Of course, the 3582 is way more efficient.
Im not trying to convince you a BLACK is better for 91oct then GREEN/BBK. I am just trying to convince you that its not as bad as you keep trying to make it out to be.
Maybe Ill get a HTA Green and do a back to back test on my car...
Last edited by Boosted Tuning; Jul 7, 2011 at 11:02 PM.
I run a 35R because I don't run 91 all the time. Life begins past 30psi. And it's an ATP twinscroll Ball bearing so it spools just as quick as a black, if not quicker. Along with that the much superior Garrett CHRA.
Fred
Fred
I dont really care about spool but when it's 500rpm+ difference for a negligible gain in PEAK hp numbers, the rational person in me says it's not worth it.
I never was trying to make the black look bad- just stating that it's not the optimal setup if all you plan on running is 91.
Fred
I never was trying to make the black look bad- just stating that it's not the optimal setup if all you plan on running is 91.
Fred
Are you forgetting Aby has a 2.3L and runs E85?
Black
pro's- great power potential, great street / city manners.
con's- i wish it had a little more in the lower revs. loud turbo due to surge cover
1 thing that i loved about the green that isnt observed in the power compares, is how much city power you have @ the tip of your foot. There is loads of power @ 2k!
power delivery looks to be ~500 rpm in the graph, but transient feel for me suggests more ~800 rpm.....what i mean, when putzing in the city, i find myself short shifting the green ~800 rpm sooner than the black.
we all have a certain feel we like when driving our cars... i felt it a lot sooner with the green than the black...hopefully that makes sense.
pro's- great power potential, great street / city manners.
con's- i wish it had a little more in the lower revs. loud turbo due to surge cover
1 thing that i loved about the green that isnt observed in the power compares, is how much city power you have @ the tip of your foot. There is loads of power @ 2k!
power delivery looks to be ~500 rpm in the graph, but transient feel for me suggests more ~800 rpm.....what i mean, when putzing in the city, i find myself short shifting the green ~800 rpm sooner than the black.
we all have a certain feel we like when driving our cars... i felt it a lot sooner with the green than the black...hopefully that makes sense.
Last edited by razorlab; Jul 7, 2011 at 11:32 PM.
And I have a stock 2.0 block/head and I have hit full boost with my BLACK at 42-4300RPM.
Last edited by Boosted Tuning; Jul 8, 2011 at 03:37 PM.
I dont really care about spool but when it's 500rpm+ difference for a negligible gain in PEAK hp numbers, the rational person in me says it's not worth it.
I never was trying to make the black look bad- just stating that it's not the optimal setup if all you plan on running is 91.
Fred
I never was trying to make the black look bad- just stating that it's not the optimal setup if all you plan on running is 91.
Fred
And yes, if you are gonna only run 91 and NEVER run anything else, then a BLACK may not be the best. But I think the real deciding factor is weather you plan to go to a built motor in the future or not, as IMO, a stock block is more of the limiting factor on a BLACK, then 91oct is.
Last edited by Boosted Tuning; Jul 8, 2011 at 01:18 AM. Reason: spelling and grammer
Thank you for all the feed back. I ordered the black and we shall see. If I'm not happy I will sell it and get an hta green or a red. I'm sure ill he happy jumping from the stock 8 turbo to a black. Should be worlds of difference.
I have specific cars we can compare at any given boost level. I am working on compiling that right now. The mods will always be the same, the differences will be turbos, fuel will be consistent between the cars.
Last edited by JohnBradley; Jul 13, 2011 at 03:31 PM.
The best comparo I can do-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
First image is the (run 7) HTA Green with stock 2.0L, S2s, Magnus, SD tune, Evo IX, ER intake, 92 octane. It put down 459. The (run 10) 460 is another car with the same mods and an FP Black at 27psi (not pictured), the last one is the SAME exact car when it had a Red on it at 27.7psi. That is the highest FP black we have ever dyno'd for reference, normally its 435-445 on average for the same mods/boost/octane
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This shows that on pumpgas (92 in this case) that you hit an area where the Green is really efficient and allows for good timing. Going over that range the timing has to come down and the car loses power. This is relative to compressor efficiency vs pressure ratio. The Red and Black require a higher pressure ratio to move an appreciable amount of CFM to feed the motor. This occurs higher than most octane will allow vs the Green that can do it at lower boost levels.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A clearer shot of the Red vs Black on the same car (runs 10 and 18). I am working on finding even more comparisons to illustrate what the averages really are vs the Green.
Aaron
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
First image is the (run 7) HTA Green with stock 2.0L, S2s, Magnus, SD tune, Evo IX, ER intake, 92 octane. It put down 459. The (run 10) 460 is another car with the same mods and an FP Black at 27psi (not pictured), the last one is the SAME exact car when it had a Red on it at 27.7psi. That is the highest FP black we have ever dyno'd for reference, normally its 435-445 on average for the same mods/boost/octane
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This shows that on pumpgas (92 in this case) that you hit an area where the Green is really efficient and allows for good timing. Going over that range the timing has to come down and the car loses power. This is relative to compressor efficiency vs pressure ratio. The Red and Black require a higher pressure ratio to move an appreciable amount of CFM to feed the motor. This occurs higher than most octane will allow vs the Green that can do it at lower boost levels.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A clearer shot of the Red vs Black on the same car (runs 10 and 18). I am working on finding even more comparisons to illustrate what the averages really are vs the Green.
Aaron
Here is what I normally see with these turbos. So as before run 7 is the HTA green and the cars following have ALL THE SAME MODS. S2s, SD, IX, me tuning, 92 octane..
Run 28 is an average FP black at a little less than 27psi. I would presume its around 440-445 at 27 (I have a few 443s from another similarly equipped car...just no boost plot). Run 6 is an FP Red and as you can see it took more boost down low for the same at peak power (this is a boost controller thing) but is identical to the FP Black while the Green is dropping off at a measly 24psi. This happens to also illustrate the boost out the top is irrelevant if there isnt sufficient CFM (air mass) at that pressure ratio.
Run 28 is an average FP black at a little less than 27psi. I would presume its around 440-445 at 27 (I have a few 443s from another similarly equipped car...just no boost plot). Run 6 is an FP Red and as you can see it took more boost down low for the same at peak power (this is a boost controller thing) but is identical to the FP Black while the Green is dropping off at a measly 24psi. This happens to also illustrate the boost out the top is irrelevant if there isnt sufficient CFM (air mass) at that pressure ratio.
