THUB

iTrader: (5)

Yea, but it's not hoping for the best, It's knowing that the company that put the dowel pin in the end of the cam did so in such a way as to time the cams the way they designed them to be timed. Some companies design their cam sets to be advanced or retarded from the conventional "Ideal". Degreeing them back to that situation will make the engine run differently, possibly worse, from how the cam manufacturer intended. Unless you have a specific demand that your cams aren't fulfilling, adjusting their timing isn't going to be helpful.

todd6027

iTrader: (10)

Did you ever degree them to be certain that the dowel pin is in the right place im sure you will find it not to be in most if not all cases

THUB

iTrader: (5)

That would depend on who's deciding where the "right place" is. Some cams are set differently intentionally. Standard manufacturing tolerances call for +- .5 degrees. I'd imagine something like a camshaft where orientation is a critical feature, it would be even.closer. the dowel pin is pressed into place prior to grinding the lobes. The cam grinder then uses that dowel to ensure the lobes are correctly oriented to eachother, valve to valve, cylinder to cylinder. To not trust that the dowel is in the right place is the same thing, effectively, as believing each lobe was just stuck on without considering its orientation relative to TDC.

PatricksEvilEvo

iTrader: (12)

What makes you say this? I'm about to order Kelford's Thursday, atleast I was planning on Kelford...

todd6027

iTrader: (10)

In the ideal world all would be good but we dont live in the ideal world , Ive seen some as much as 10 crank deg off others not so much and only one set ever which were exactly as supposed to be .

THUB

iTrader: (5)

What are you basing "off" on? I've never had a set of EVO cams come with their actual opening/closing times listed. Some cam manufacturers will grind their cams different from "textbook straight up" to alter how the powerband looks.

todd6027

iTrader: (10)

All aftermarket cams should come with a cam card

http://www.kelford.co.nz/sole-purpos...eeing-your-cam

THUB

iTrader: (5)

Kelford's cam card is more elaborate than the one I got with my GSCs, so in that respect, I apologize for my inexperience.
Either way, because we have a direct way to see when our cams are "off time" in relation to the timing belt, and therefore, crank, (the marks on the VC {more on my opinion of those below}) it's safe to say that if the dowel was placed correctly (A safe assumption) then the cams are going to be good within a degree or so.
Basically, if I set my timing belt right, and the marks on the gears are lined up with the marks on the VC, AND I trust my cam manufacturer to do adequate quality control, then I can be assured my cams are going to be timed correctly. This method accounts for differences in deck height pretty effectively, but that's irrelevant in an unmachined, factory block.

I'm not really a big fan of calling the valve cover's cast in marks "accurate" but they did show me that I was off by 3.5 degrees (cam rotation) exactly when I went to a 2.4.
I'm also not willing to make a solid lifter to find out more accurately than that. It's just not worth it. Also, if you didn't turn down a little piece of steel and disassemble a regular lifter to create a solid lifter, as kelford's article states, then that could easily be why you had a cam that was 10* off.

VEGASEVO_MR

so if cam gears are not needed for DD when do they recommend them or is it more for looks?

BiFfMaN

iTrader: (3)

No they are only needed in rare cases like my full rebuild and ER Oil Gear.

If you make major changes in your valve train system, or even get the head/blocked decked. It is a good idea to before putting that motor in your car is to Degree those cams with the Crank per cam card specifications.

If your putting Cams in a stock block, with known measurements, then no you do not need a Degree wheel. If your putting a 4G64 block on a Built Head, then yes it is a great idea to check your Cam Timing and Set your cams correctly.


Long video, but explains the process on how to check on our Block/Head

meckert

iTrader: (11)

I know there is a cam thread that's several pages long that has recommendations for specific cams for cam timing. Yes, you can just drop a cam in and go-- and contrary to popular belief if your builder or tuner wont adjust your cam timing per conversations with you on what you want in a power band then find another tuner--anyone can be an installer. If you want to MOST from your build/cams to dial in the cams to meet those goal-- ie, you want a low end torque monster or an all out HP build--two very different power bands that can come from the same cams if they are dialed in.. Gear are just for looks to those who don't know what they are used for or how to dial them in or don't have any idea of cam dynamics. There are also instances when the cam manufacture doesn't get a good grind on a cam and it will not meet the specs on the card when dropped in and needs to be dialed in--this can be several degrees off--would be nice to know why your cam isn't performing like others....

okevolutionVIII

iTrader: (71)

There's plenty of good reasons to use cam gears. One is to experiment with moving the powerband where you want it, to make sure they are straight up in case of quality control problems(like my old Revolvers that were off my 22* on the intake alone) and the reason I use them is to degree the cams to factory specs after having the head and block decked, meaning the the stock cam gears would be positioning the cams off by a bit.

They will never be straight up after changing the height, which is why they're need on 4G64 block setups.