Car heating/cooling issues: Educated opinions welcomed
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From: Raleigh, Transplanted from Toronto, Canada
The gauge sensor is extremely 'dumb' and inaccurate, don't really judge anything by it.
What mix are you running in the radiator? You may try ducting in the radiator and A/C condenser.
I do believe core quality does make a difference especially in smaller radiator big power setups but koyo doesn't seem to be bad as far as quality goes.
How about some pictures of your shroud and setup?
What mix are you running in the radiator? You may try ducting in the radiator and A/C condenser.
I do believe core quality does make a difference especially in smaller radiator big power setups but koyo doesn't seem to be bad as far as quality goes.
How about some pictures of your shroud and setup?
AFAIK its now running straight coolant no mix. Before it looked like water wetter and water.
Spec-Ops rates Koyo pretty highly so I don't think its crap either. Pics are above courtesy of DF (Thanks Alex).
Let me also add that I'm used to seeing regular operating temps at 180's-190's. So even though I'm saying its staying low 200's I'm not happy with that either. Car feels like a friend mines that used to run hot as well all the time (feels like a blast furnace).
Last edited by SmurfZilla; Jul 12, 2013 at 06:25 AM.
The only thing I can add is that straight coolant will not cool as well as a mix with water. I've seen some funky things happen at my dealer when the cars have been ran with only coolant in them. Like say when a customer does their own coolant service then brings it in for overheating issues. Coolant is not necessarily the proper terminology to use, more appropriately it is anti freeze. It is there to keep things from corroding and to keep the water from freezing. You should drain the radiator and block then try again with at most a 50% anti freeze and 50% water mix with a water wetter thrown in. Personally since I'm in California and am not worried about snow I run a 30% anti freeze, 70% water mix with a water wetter thrown in. Hope this might help you.
The only thing I can add is that straight coolant will not cool as well as a mix with water. I've seen some funky things happen at my dealer when the cars have been ran with only coolant in them. Like say when a customer does their own coolant service then brings it in for overheating issues. Coolant is not necessarily the proper terminology to use, more appropriately it is anti freeze. It is there to keep things from corroding and to keep the water from freezing. You should drain the radiator and block then try again with at most a 50% anti freeze and 50% water mix with a water wetter thrown in. Personally since I'm in California and am not worried about snow I run a 30% anti freeze, 70% water mix with a water wetter thrown in. Hope this might help you.
Just some quick tidbits- I dont have too much time to dedicate to this today- as we are swamped but I wanted to atleast try---
There are quite a few things that affect the cooling system (as we've learned by making good and bad cooling solutions over the years)
1.) speed at which the coolant is circulating through the system- t-stat affects this too
2.) type of coolant being used (water is the best heat transfer device in these things- with just enough coolant/additive to prevent corrosion
3.) pressure of the cap seems to make an effective difference too--- we have seen lots of OEM caps become weak (on all different radiators) and purge coolant out at lower than ideal temps etc---
4.) the fin density- we have made big gains and losses here- for instance- a very dense high FPN core will work well at cooling at speed- but offers too much resistance at idle for the fans to effectively draw heat away--- aka- cars run hot stationary- and super cool while moving or under load--- a core not dense enough will do the opposite in MOST cases---
one of the fastest rolling mph record holding evo's from europe used our half width high density core- which worked amazing for them- but got warm sitting on the dyno or stationary-
5.) Overall size- obviously more mass the better- but you also have added drag of pumping through it---
all of these things play a big part- and its a tough balance---
Most of the issues people come to us with is "my car runs hot in traffic" which is relying ALOT on the fan to remove the heat... a quick and easy solution to this---
run an independent thermostat controlled switch--- wired to power-- with a relay- and triggered by an independent sensor placed in the t-stat housing--- these tend to run the fans at higher CFM than the factory control module-----
we run ones that turn on at 175 degrees and turn off around 165 degrees- basically meaning its running at HIGH cfm all of the time--- and they are cheap around 35-55$- through jegs or summit---
the other option is some ducting- but we've seen this have adverse affects too, such as the GG widebody F1 manifold car--- we ducted the hell out of it- to force air through the cooling and charge system- and saw an increase in temps--- we then removed some to let the air bleed around the system and saw a drop in temps----
Take a look at alot of the new generation high hp cars (like a GTR) that have flappers that open at speed- but stay closed when at idle--- youll see some nice designs there---
that being said-- i spent more time on this than I though I could LOL!
Ill be back in the thread next week- after the weekend--
one thing I really dont like on aftermarket rad setups- reducing the diameter of the hoses used to supply coolant- putting a -12 or -16 fitting just does NOT cut it- and I've seen people blow out tubes on even high dollar radiators doing this--- stick as close to stock as possible
cb
There are quite a few things that affect the cooling system (as we've learned by making good and bad cooling solutions over the years)
1.) speed at which the coolant is circulating through the system- t-stat affects this too
2.) type of coolant being used (water is the best heat transfer device in these things- with just enough coolant/additive to prevent corrosion
3.) pressure of the cap seems to make an effective difference too--- we have seen lots of OEM caps become weak (on all different radiators) and purge coolant out at lower than ideal temps etc---
4.) the fin density- we have made big gains and losses here- for instance- a very dense high FPN core will work well at cooling at speed- but offers too much resistance at idle for the fans to effectively draw heat away--- aka- cars run hot stationary- and super cool while moving or under load--- a core not dense enough will do the opposite in MOST cases---
one of the fastest rolling mph record holding evo's from europe used our half width high density core- which worked amazing for them- but got warm sitting on the dyno or stationary-
5.) Overall size- obviously more mass the better- but you also have added drag of pumping through it---
all of these things play a big part- and its a tough balance---
Most of the issues people come to us with is "my car runs hot in traffic" which is relying ALOT on the fan to remove the heat... a quick and easy solution to this---
run an independent thermostat controlled switch--- wired to power-- with a relay- and triggered by an independent sensor placed in the t-stat housing--- these tend to run the fans at higher CFM than the factory control module-----
we run ones that turn on at 175 degrees and turn off around 165 degrees- basically meaning its running at HIGH cfm all of the time--- and they are cheap around 35-55$- through jegs or summit---
the other option is some ducting- but we've seen this have adverse affects too, such as the GG widebody F1 manifold car--- we ducted the hell out of it- to force air through the cooling and charge system- and saw an increase in temps--- we then removed some to let the air bleed around the system and saw a drop in temps----
Take a look at alot of the new generation high hp cars (like a GTR) that have flappers that open at speed- but stay closed when at idle--- youll see some nice designs there---
that being said-- i spent more time on this than I though I could LOL!
Ill be back in the thread next week- after the weekend--
one thing I really dont like on aftermarket rad setups- reducing the diameter of the hoses used to supply coolant- putting a -12 or -16 fitting just does NOT cut it- and I've seen people blow out tubes on even high dollar radiators doing this--- stick as close to stock as possible
cb
Just some quick tidbits- I dont have too much time to dedicate to this today- as we are swamped but I wanted to atleast try---
There are quite a few things that affect the cooling system (as we've learned by making good and bad cooling solutions over the years)
1.) speed at which the coolant is circulating through the system- t-stat affects this too
2.) type of coolant being used (water is the best heat transfer device in these things- with just enough coolant/additive to prevent corrosion
3.) pressure of the cap seems to make an effective difference too--- we have seen lots of OEM caps become weak (on all different radiators) and purge coolant out at lower than ideal temps etc---
4.) the fin density- we have made big gains and losses here- for instance- a very dense high FPN core will work well at cooling at speed- but offers too much resistance at idle for the fans to effectively draw heat away--- aka- cars run hot stationary- and super cool while moving or under load--- a core not dense enough will do the opposite in MOST cases---
one of the fastest rolling mph record holding evo's from europe used our half width high density core- which worked amazing for them- but got warm sitting on the dyno or stationary-
5.) Overall size- obviously more mass the better- but you also have added drag of pumping through it---
all of these things play a big part- and its a tough balance---
Most of the issues people come to us with is "my car runs hot in traffic" which is relying ALOT on the fan to remove the heat... a quick and easy solution to this---
run an independent thermostat controlled switch--- wired to power-- with a relay- and triggered by an independent sensor placed in the t-stat housing--- these tend to run the fans at higher CFM than the factory control module-----
we run ones that turn on at 175 degrees and turn off around 165 degrees- basically meaning its running at HIGH cfm all of the time--- and they are cheap around 35-55$- through jegs or summit---
the other option is some ducting- but we've seen this have adverse affects too, such as the GG widebody F1 manifold car--- we ducted the hell out of it- to force air through the cooling and charge system- and saw an increase in temps--- we then removed some to let the air bleed around the system and saw a drop in temps----
Take a look at alot of the new generation high hp cars (like a GTR) that have flappers that open at speed- but stay closed when at idle--- youll see some nice designs there---
that being said-- i spent more time on this than I though I could LOL!
Ill be back in the thread next week- after the weekend--
one thing I really dont like on aftermarket rad setups- reducing the diameter of the hoses used to supply coolant- putting a -12 or -16 fitting just does NOT cut it- and I've seen people blow out tubes on even high dollar radiators doing this--- stick as close to stock as possible
cb
There are quite a few things that affect the cooling system (as we've learned by making good and bad cooling solutions over the years)
1.) speed at which the coolant is circulating through the system- t-stat affects this too
2.) type of coolant being used (water is the best heat transfer device in these things- with just enough coolant/additive to prevent corrosion
3.) pressure of the cap seems to make an effective difference too--- we have seen lots of OEM caps become weak (on all different radiators) and purge coolant out at lower than ideal temps etc---
4.) the fin density- we have made big gains and losses here- for instance- a very dense high FPN core will work well at cooling at speed- but offers too much resistance at idle for the fans to effectively draw heat away--- aka- cars run hot stationary- and super cool while moving or under load--- a core not dense enough will do the opposite in MOST cases---
one of the fastest rolling mph record holding evo's from europe used our half width high density core- which worked amazing for them- but got warm sitting on the dyno or stationary-
5.) Overall size- obviously more mass the better- but you also have added drag of pumping through it---
all of these things play a big part- and its a tough balance---
Most of the issues people come to us with is "my car runs hot in traffic" which is relying ALOT on the fan to remove the heat... a quick and easy solution to this---
run an independent thermostat controlled switch--- wired to power-- with a relay- and triggered by an independent sensor placed in the t-stat housing--- these tend to run the fans at higher CFM than the factory control module-----
we run ones that turn on at 175 degrees and turn off around 165 degrees- basically meaning its running at HIGH cfm all of the time--- and they are cheap around 35-55$- through jegs or summit---
the other option is some ducting- but we've seen this have adverse affects too, such as the GG widebody F1 manifold car--- we ducted the hell out of it- to force air through the cooling and charge system- and saw an increase in temps--- we then removed some to let the air bleed around the system and saw a drop in temps----
Take a look at alot of the new generation high hp cars (like a GTR) that have flappers that open at speed- but stay closed when at idle--- youll see some nice designs there---
that being said-- i spent more time on this than I though I could LOL!
Ill be back in the thread next week- after the weekend--
one thing I really dont like on aftermarket rad setups- reducing the diameter of the hoses used to supply coolant- putting a -12 or -16 fitting just does NOT cut it- and I've seen people blow out tubes on even high dollar radiators doing this--- stick as close to stock as possible
cb
So stock hose diameter, t-stat -160-180 , reduce coolant mixture and add water wetter. Add fan back in and use a switch set at 170 tune on 160 turn off. with relay. Ducting last resort..
Hurell ....there is a thread in the Advanced section that shows how to add an additional sensor to the t-stat housing. IIRC STM may have one. and I would think Chad can could come up with a housing predrilled for the second as well. The sensor should be below the T-stat so on the bottom of the housing.
Hope this helps....
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From: Raleigh, Transplanted from Toronto, Canada
Thanks guys. If i can't find what i need locally I'll have to order parts and try next weekend (Assuming the car will not give me anymore issues during next ).
Went to meet my wife for lunch today....Again its not really cold but the T-Stat is rock solid below half. MY OBD II scanner/evoscanPPC crapped out so I cant tell what coolant temps are atm.
I may just try getting evoscan running on an old laptop at work and logging that way.
Went to meet my wife for lunch today....Again its not really cold but the T-Stat is rock solid below half. MY OBD II scanner/evoscanPPC crapped out so I cant tell what coolant temps are atm.
I may just try getting evoscan running on an old laptop at work and logging that way.
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From: Raleigh, Transplanted from Toronto, Canada
Finally got my evoscanppc to work. So interestingly enough my temps stay around 206-210 while on the highway cruising (temps are no higher then 70ish outside), that seems high, no?
It seems like the temps went lower when I came to a stop.
WTH.
It seems like the temps went lower when I came to a stop.
WTH.
Shroud is definitely helping at least.
do you have a uprated pressure cap? for every 1psi you put water under it increases the boiling point by 3 degrees... so even if you continue to run on the hotside at least you are slightly more protected...
also it sounds stupid but if i hadn't just done it this week i would agree... is your hood down... i ran with my hood off because it was at the body shop where my bay got painted. my temps rocketed on the highway and above 35 since the fans wont kick on... then when i mounted it it wasn't fitted right and the temps with elevated a bit more... once is was aligned and flushed to the bumper the temps dropped. so far in fact i might pull my mishimoto thermo back out because on the highway i logged a drop from 205 - 180 in 3 miles...
for reference i run a cheap *** godspeed civic half size with a custom fitted oen evo fan, stm -16an upper hose, and a cheap *** ebay lower rad hose since the evo water pipe has a 1.4in and the civic uses a 1.2in the ebay hose is 1.3 and fits both just right...
the off the shelf rad cooling plates are garbage and dont cover where the holes in the bumper are naturally... but if you make a custom one it will block that and help funnel air thru the core. also the splash shield that mounts over the headlight bracket will help to divert air thru the core as well... if you have it removed that is...
also it sounds stupid but if i hadn't just done it this week i would agree... is your hood down... i ran with my hood off because it was at the body shop where my bay got painted. my temps rocketed on the highway and above 35 since the fans wont kick on... then when i mounted it it wasn't fitted right and the temps with elevated a bit more... once is was aligned and flushed to the bumper the temps dropped. so far in fact i might pull my mishimoto thermo back out because on the highway i logged a drop from 205 - 180 in 3 miles...
for reference i run a cheap *** godspeed civic half size with a custom fitted oen evo fan, stm -16an upper hose, and a cheap *** ebay lower rad hose since the evo water pipe has a 1.4in and the civic uses a 1.2in the ebay hose is 1.3 and fits both just right...
the off the shelf rad cooling plates are garbage and dont cover where the holes in the bumper are naturally... but if you make a custom one it will block that and help funnel air thru the core. also the splash shield that mounts over the headlight bracket will help to divert air thru the core as well... if you have it removed that is...
VP sells some stuff too. i have never used it, because i have a gigantic radiator, but... VP is the king of fuels, and i definitely trust them.
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page469699.html
it's called Cool Down
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page469699.html
it's called Cool Down