Evo 8 Evo Headgasket blown twice - Opinions pls
Feb 27, 2018, 12:08 AM
#1
Newbie
Thread Starter
Evo 8 Evo Headgasket blown twice - Opinions pls
Hi All,
I am looking for peoples opinions and experience with a mechanical issue I have with my Evo 8.
The Short Version:
I have an Evo 8 that had the headgasket blow twice Within 3 months (just over 2800kms /1749 miles).
The workshop has said that the cause is a radiator fan that is running at 100% after hitting 80 degrees celcius.
The Longer Version:
I have an Evo 8 GSR imported from Japan and am based in Australia.
At roughly 105,800km's the headgasket blew and it was repaired by my trusted workshop.
Just prior to this within a 100s of km, the thermostat, radiator, radiator fan and the radiator cap had been replaced. The fan control unit was also tested but was fine at the time.
They noted that for some reason, the radiator fan runs at 100% once it reaches about 80c degrees and it is most probably the tune - I was told this would be no good for the electrical system and that it would put strain on the battery and the alternator.
The car had also had the 100,000km service with them where they changed the timing belt, etc and the water pump and changed all fluids. All geniune stuff used.
Within 3 months (just over 2800kms /1749 miles), the headgasket needed to be redone and the head was cracked.
I took the car to the workshop because the temp gauge started rising on the way to work to about 80 - 85% when accelerating and then back down to normal when not accelerating.
I pulled over within 2 mins and filled the radiator with water.
I left the car for the day and then later on drove it home without issues - I checked the water but it didn't need much, maybe 30 - 50 mls.
I left the car for the weekend and then took it to the workshop to investigate.
The Workshops Findings:
Engine overheating from blown head gasket and cracked Cylinder head (cracked on journal no.3 at 6PSI pressure). Checked car, no visible coolant leaks, radiator cap was holding pressure.
The Workshops Diagnoses:
When radiator fan is running all the time, it causes thermostat to stay shut (or delaying thermostat opening). When the thermostat is stuck shut causing the hot water to bypass the radiator and failing to cool down the cylinder head. While the head stays extremely hot, and thermostat is finally opened, the rush of cooler temperature water flow into the cylinder head and creates extreme difference in temperature and causing damage on the cylinder head after a certain period of time.
If there was an issue with the cylinder head pressure/crack/soft test or any assembly or parts, the overheating would reoccur straight away (or within 100 - 500km of driving) or if any coolant leaks, car would overheat straight away depending on how much of the leak.
I have little mechanical knowledge but have friends that do and have a few friends of friends that are mechanics who say that this doesn't sound right and sounds like outright BS.
So the question is, can a fan running all the time after hitting 80 degrees celcius cause a headgasket to go and the head to crack?
Should this be covered by the mechanic or is this something that could and does happen, that an owner needs to look out for and ultimately, pay thousands of dollars to fix twice.
I have never had any issues with this workshop and they specialise in Perfomance based Mitsubishi's, so up until now, I had little doubt in their services and integrity.
I am looking for peoples opinions and experience with a mechanical issue I have with my Evo 8.
The Short Version:
I have an Evo 8 that had the headgasket blow twice Within 3 months (just over 2800kms /1749 miles).
The workshop has said that the cause is a radiator fan that is running at 100% after hitting 80 degrees celcius.
The Longer Version:
I have an Evo 8 GSR imported from Japan and am based in Australia.
At roughly 105,800km's the headgasket blew and it was repaired by my trusted workshop.
Just prior to this within a 100s of km, the thermostat, radiator, radiator fan and the radiator cap had been replaced. The fan control unit was also tested but was fine at the time.
They noted that for some reason, the radiator fan runs at 100% once it reaches about 80c degrees and it is most probably the tune - I was told this would be no good for the electrical system and that it would put strain on the battery and the alternator.
The car had also had the 100,000km service with them where they changed the timing belt, etc and the water pump and changed all fluids. All geniune stuff used.
Within 3 months (just over 2800kms /1749 miles), the headgasket needed to be redone and the head was cracked.
I took the car to the workshop because the temp gauge started rising on the way to work to about 80 - 85% when accelerating and then back down to normal when not accelerating.
I pulled over within 2 mins and filled the radiator with water.
I left the car for the day and then later on drove it home without issues - I checked the water but it didn't need much, maybe 30 - 50 mls.
I left the car for the weekend and then took it to the workshop to investigate.
The Workshops Findings:
Engine overheating from blown head gasket and cracked Cylinder head (cracked on journal no.3 at 6PSI pressure). Checked car, no visible coolant leaks, radiator cap was holding pressure.
The Workshops Diagnoses:
When radiator fan is running all the time, it causes thermostat to stay shut (or delaying thermostat opening). When the thermostat is stuck shut causing the hot water to bypass the radiator and failing to cool down the cylinder head. While the head stays extremely hot, and thermostat is finally opened, the rush of cooler temperature water flow into the cylinder head and creates extreme difference in temperature and causing damage on the cylinder head after a certain period of time.
If there was an issue with the cylinder head pressure/crack/soft test or any assembly or parts, the overheating would reoccur straight away (or within 100 - 500km of driving) or if any coolant leaks, car would overheat straight away depending on how much of the leak.
I have little mechanical knowledge but have friends that do and have a few friends of friends that are mechanics who say that this doesn't sound right and sounds like outright BS.
So the question is, can a fan running all the time after hitting 80 degrees celcius cause a headgasket to go and the head to crack?
Should this be covered by the mechanic or is this something that could and does happen, that an owner needs to look out for and ultimately, pay thousands of dollars to fix twice.
I have never had any issues with this workshop and they specialise in Perfomance based Mitsubishi's, so up until now, I had little doubt in their services and integrity.
Feb 27, 2018, 08:40 AM
#2
Evolved Member
The head was cracked when you bought it and the shop didn't catch it the first time around. If there's a tune for the fan the previous owner also had heating problems.
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IHaveAnEvo (Feb 27, 2018)
Feb 27, 2018, 08:53 AM
#3
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
Fan running all the time did not cause this. Your shop is full of ****... 2nd head gasket in 3 months sounds like installer error and/or they missed something.
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IHaveAnEvo (Feb 27, 2018)
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IHaveAnEvo (Feb 27, 2018)
Feb 27, 2018, 10:14 AM
#5
Evolved Member
The Evo head isn't known for cracking. So, if you show up at a shop with a blown head gasket I can understand why they might miss it. No excuse for lying about it though.
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IHaveAnEvo (Feb 27, 2018)
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IHaveAnEvo (Feb 27, 2018)
Feb 27, 2018, 02:46 PM
#7
Newbie
Thread Starter
Thank you all for your responses.
The workshop sent the head off originally and it was Crack/Pressure/Soft test on the cylinder head and passed. Replaced head gasket/valve stem seals/Intake Manifold Gasket/Exhaust Manifold Gasket/Rocker Cover Gaskets, Lifters, Camshaft seals, repaired exhaust valve guides, reused coolants (near new).
They did mention that the fan running was weird and that it would strain electrical components in passing conversation but did not state that it would cause any major damage.
Now they are saying that this is the cause for the failure and that they had informed me that it was not right.
I have questioned why it would run for +3 years without any issues and they stated that it was just a matter of time before this happened - but within 3 months? Really?
I guess the question is, could the radiator fan running all time after the engine hitting 80 degrees Celsius really cause the head to crack and a leak to form?
Would this cause the engine to overheat?
How reasonable is the diagnoses they have given me?
On the Evo Oz forum, someone mentioned that if the fan running at 100% of the time was an issue, wouldn't driving in cold temps and over 60km/ph /~40miles per hour cause a similar issue (As this would surely flow more air than the fan could)
The workshop sent the head off originally and it was Crack/Pressure/Soft test on the cylinder head and passed. Replaced head gasket/valve stem seals/Intake Manifold Gasket/Exhaust Manifold Gasket/Rocker Cover Gaskets, Lifters, Camshaft seals, repaired exhaust valve guides, reused coolants (near new).
They did mention that the fan running was weird and that it would strain electrical components in passing conversation but did not state that it would cause any major damage.
Now they are saying that this is the cause for the failure and that they had informed me that it was not right.
I have questioned why it would run for +3 years without any issues and they stated that it was just a matter of time before this happened - but within 3 months? Really?
I guess the question is, could the radiator fan running all time after the engine hitting 80 degrees Celsius really cause the head to crack and a leak to form?
Would this cause the engine to overheat?
How reasonable is the diagnoses they have given me?
On the Evo Oz forum, someone mentioned that if the fan running at 100% of the time was an issue, wouldn't driving in cold temps and over 60km/ph /~40miles per hour cause a similar issue (As this would surely flow more air than the fan could)
Trending Topics
Feb 27, 2018, 04:59 PM
#8
Evolved Member
If the fan runs ALL the time then its the controller. The controllers seem to be good for about 100,000 miles. I've heard they are available new for little money on Amazon or E-bay.
I was out driving this winter at -27 C. My motor suffered no damage.
I was out driving this winter at -27 C. My motor suffered no damage.
Feb 27, 2018, 05:46 PM
#9
Thank you all for your responses.
The workshop sent the head off originally and it was Crack/Pressure/Soft test on the cylinder head and passed. Replaced head gasket/valve stem seals/Intake Manifold Gasket/Exhaust Manifold Gasket/Rocker Cover Gaskets, Lifters, Camshaft seals, repaired exhaust valve guides, reused coolants (near new).
They did mention that the fan running was weird and that it would strain electrical components in passing conversation but did not state that it would cause any major damage.
Now they are saying that this is the cause for the failure and that they had informed me that it was not right.
I have questioned why it would run for +3 years without any issues and they stated that it was just a matter of time before this happened - but within 3 months? Really?
I guess the question is, could the radiator fan running all time after the engine hitting 80 degrees Celsius really cause the head to crack and a leak to form?
Would this cause the engine to overheat?
How reasonable is the diagnoses they have given me?
On the Evo Oz forum, someone mentioned that if the fan running at 100% of the time was an issue, wouldn't driving in cold temps and over 60km/ph /~40miles per hour cause a similar issue (As this would surely flow more air than the fan could)
The workshop sent the head off originally and it was Crack/Pressure/Soft test on the cylinder head and passed. Replaced head gasket/valve stem seals/Intake Manifold Gasket/Exhaust Manifold Gasket/Rocker Cover Gaskets, Lifters, Camshaft seals, repaired exhaust valve guides, reused coolants (near new).
They did mention that the fan running was weird and that it would strain electrical components in passing conversation but did not state that it would cause any major damage.
Now they are saying that this is the cause for the failure and that they had informed me that it was not right.
I have questioned why it would run for +3 years without any issues and they stated that it was just a matter of time before this happened - but within 3 months? Really?
I guess the question is, could the radiator fan running all time after the engine hitting 80 degrees Celsius really cause the head to crack and a leak to form?
Would this cause the engine to overheat?
How reasonable is the diagnoses they have given me?
On the Evo Oz forum, someone mentioned that if the fan running at 100% of the time was an issue, wouldn't driving in cold temps and over 60km/ph /~40miles per hour cause a similar issue (As this would surely flow more air than the fan could)
Feb 27, 2018, 06:16 PM
#10
Newbie
Thread Starter
I had questioned the workshop regarding their diagnosis and they have responded with the following - I think they are trying to say that as the fan control is not factory standard, the car is going through repeated abnormal heat cycles - please help me make sense of this;
The crack on No.3 cylinder would have occurred first as a result of extreme differences in temperature through out the system repeatedly. It's not a sudden thermal shock as it's not a result of a one-off temperature difference occurance. The abnormal heat cycle that reoccur over a period of time (in your case within 2850km) that caused the head to crack which I have already explained in my previous email.
To answer your questions, there are times in performance and racing where slow speeds, and design restrictions require the air to be taken to the cooler, rather than the cooler taken to the air. Whether you race in circle track, drag racing, road racing, off road, rock climbing, drifting, rally or just plain off roading with the family, an electric fan is warranted and often necessary for cooling various components. Some race cars were not equipped with radiator fan as they can maintain enough speed for air flow cooling efficiency. Your car is not a race car and you are driving in a normal road environment with speed limit 50-60kph and traffic congestion as well as traffic lights and the air flow through the engine would be inefficient.
From what I gathered, the argument was that you and your friends believed when having the fan runs at all time would be considered as "cooling system is too good" and should benefits the engine and why the 2nd overheating reoccured and Flashting the ECU is not necessary. You can refer to the information provided in my previous email an in the first paragraph of this email. It's definitely not a thermal shock case. It's a repeated extreme differences in temperature cycles, note, over a certain period of time. The alluminium cylinder head was designed to handle normal heat cycle where the cooling system is fuctioning at the factory specification and under normal circumstance. Any modifications (in your case the ECU and the rom that set the fan to run at 71c and all the time) or failing parts i.e. leak water hoses, blocked radiator, faulty fan, faulty fan control unit, etc. You and your friends still don't believe that there's anything wrong with the fan and the ecu.
For thermostat, factory thermostat is set to open at 80c and fully opened at 90c, according to workshop manual. Your car ECU (Ralliart) had set the fan to run at 71c and never stop until engine is turned off. The coolant temperature will eventually reach 80c but delayed by your flat out running fan that excessively unnecessary reducing coolants temperature when the temperature only reaches 71c and that how your car/engine/cooling system has differences in temperature all the time while the engine is running.
In motor vehicles, everything works together. One tiny problem may lead to more severe problem in the area where you don't expect. Hence, the whole car needs to run right as per manufacturer specification.
There has been an ongoing temperature issues on your car since August 2017 and we have brought up the issue with the fan and ECU to your attention and how to fix the problem by flashing the ECU but our advice and suggestion were declined.
To answer your questions, there are times in performance and racing where slow speeds, and design restrictions require the air to be taken to the cooler, rather than the cooler taken to the air. Whether you race in circle track, drag racing, road racing, off road, rock climbing, drifting, rally or just plain off roading with the family, an electric fan is warranted and often necessary for cooling various components. Some race cars were not equipped with radiator fan as they can maintain enough speed for air flow cooling efficiency. Your car is not a race car and you are driving in a normal road environment with speed limit 50-60kph and traffic congestion as well as traffic lights and the air flow through the engine would be inefficient.
From what I gathered, the argument was that you and your friends believed when having the fan runs at all time would be considered as "cooling system is too good" and should benefits the engine and why the 2nd overheating reoccured and Flashting the ECU is not necessary. You can refer to the information provided in my previous email an in the first paragraph of this email. It's definitely not a thermal shock case. It's a repeated extreme differences in temperature cycles, note, over a certain period of time. The alluminium cylinder head was designed to handle normal heat cycle where the cooling system is fuctioning at the factory specification and under normal circumstance. Any modifications (in your case the ECU and the rom that set the fan to run at 71c and all the time) or failing parts i.e. leak water hoses, blocked radiator, faulty fan, faulty fan control unit, etc. You and your friends still don't believe that there's anything wrong with the fan and the ecu.
For thermostat, factory thermostat is set to open at 80c and fully opened at 90c, according to workshop manual. Your car ECU (Ralliart) had set the fan to run at 71c and never stop until engine is turned off. The coolant temperature will eventually reach 80c but delayed by your flat out running fan that excessively unnecessary reducing coolants temperature when the temperature only reaches 71c and that how your car/engine/cooling system has differences in temperature all the time while the engine is running.
In motor vehicles, everything works together. One tiny problem may lead to more severe problem in the area where you don't expect. Hence, the whole car needs to run right as per manufacturer specification.
There has been an ongoing temperature issues on your car since August 2017 and we have brought up the issue with the fan and ECU to your attention and how to fix the problem by flashing the ECU but our advice and suggestion were declined.
Feb 27, 2018, 06:37 PM
#11
I had questioned the workshop regarding their diagnosis and they have responded with the following - I think they are trying to say that as the fan control is not factory standard, the car is going through repeated abnormal heat cycles - please help me make sense of this;
Now, if your fan failed, that's a different story. Engine can overheat if car is not moving.
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Feb 27, 2018, 06:51 PM
#12
Good thing you didn't pay for his ecu flash. Probably would have blown your block and say it's caused by your fan too.
It's hilarious to think coolant entering engine at 50 degrees difference will heat cycle the aluminum head. I think plastic can tolerate more than 50 degrees. My SUV have plastic intake manifold. I drove almost 300,000 km to Las Vegas when it's 48 degrees in sunmer and -7 degrees in winter. I guess Mitsubishi engineers screwed up and used aluminum. They should have used plastic!
It's hilarious to think coolant entering engine at 50 degrees difference will heat cycle the aluminum head. I think plastic can tolerate more than 50 degrees. My SUV have plastic intake manifold. I drove almost 300,000 km to Las Vegas when it's 48 degrees in sunmer and -7 degrees in winter. I guess Mitsubishi engineers screwed up and used aluminum. They should have used plastic!
Last edited by 2006EvoIXer; Feb 27, 2018 at 07:08 PM.
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IHaveAnEvo (Feb 28, 2018)
Feb 27, 2018, 11:48 PM
#13
Account Disabled
I've yet to see a 4G63 head that's got a crack in it.
It wasn't fixed properly the first time.
Ut's not simply a case of checking to see that the head and block are flat, they need resurfacing if it's leaked in the past, both the block and the head.
That's in order to give a freshly machined surface that seals properly.
It's quite common to have surface rust on the top of the block, you can't see it until you start to resurface it. it's porous and causes the leaks.
It wasn't fixed properly the first time.
Ut's not simply a case of checking to see that the head and block are flat, they need resurfacing if it's leaked in the past, both the block and the head.
That's in order to give a freshly machined surface that seals properly.
It's quite common to have surface rust on the top of the block, you can't see it until you start to resurface it. it's porous and causes the leaks.
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DontStopMe (Feb 28, 2018),
IHaveAnEvo (Feb 28, 2018)
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IHaveAnEvo (Feb 28, 2018)
Feb 28, 2018, 04:43 AM
#15
Newbie
Thread Starter
Ok so I went in for answers today as I wanted to look them in the eye when they were giving answers.
They were polite and answered my questions as follows, but I still walked away unconvinced and said I would leave the car there for them to further monitor.
I put the following points across.
- A thermostat opens when the engine reaches a certain temp and a fans job is to cool down contents in the radiator. Correct? Yes
- If this is the case, how does the fan impact temperatures in the head if the thermostat only opens at a predetermined temp?
- Surely a fan, cannot cause a large enough drop in temperature to cause "extreme differences in temps"
With 3 mechanics around me and my lack of mechanical understanding, I got the following;
The issue is that the head has a crack on cylinder 3.
They could not find any leaks, radiator and radiator cap is fine, no issues with clamps, hoses and when they removed the head there were no issues with their workmanship.
The say that the crack in the head has been caused by differences in temperature around the head.
As they have vetted the cooling system basically entirely, they believe the fan running apparently before the thermostat opens (when I was in there, I witnessed them measure the temp at 80 degrees, they are now saying it is running when the car reaches 72 degrees) is causing the thermostat to open and close when it shouldn't be. I did not really feel like this was good enough.
A few things they tried to put across to me was;
- I pointed out that the fan was running when it shouldn't be and it should be investigated. But I cannot force you to fix this if you didn't want to.
I said this is true, but you said it would cause stress to the electrical system - not cause the head to crack.
- If the fan is not running as intended from factory, you can not say that your cooling system is running properly - there is an issue there.
Refer to my points across, that they werent able to answer but this point still came up another 4 times.
- They mentioned that there were a number of items that they pointed out that I left and didn't fix right away. Mind you, they did say to me they weren't urgent and wouldn't impact the car at all. Just for transparency, I will list them below. I believe I have taken care of this car as best I can, it has never missed a service in my ownership - every 5k (oil filter etc) and all fluids other every 20k, filled with 98 Ron Petrol ALWAYS. Genuine parts where necessary - FFS i chose their $50 genuine rad cap over the $15 one. Sorry this one bothered me a bit.
The above issues have been rectified apart from the battery terminal crimping.
Sorry for the long posts, I'm trying to give all the info I can while still being objective as I do not want to give a business a bad name if I am wrong and I am man enough to take responsibility if I am at fault.
They were polite and answered my questions as follows, but I still walked away unconvinced and said I would leave the car there for them to further monitor.
I put the following points across.
- A thermostat opens when the engine reaches a certain temp and a fans job is to cool down contents in the radiator. Correct? Yes
- If this is the case, how does the fan impact temperatures in the head if the thermostat only opens at a predetermined temp?
- Surely a fan, cannot cause a large enough drop in temperature to cause "extreme differences in temps"
With 3 mechanics around me and my lack of mechanical understanding, I got the following;
The issue is that the head has a crack on cylinder 3.
They could not find any leaks, radiator and radiator cap is fine, no issues with clamps, hoses and when they removed the head there were no issues with their workmanship.
The say that the crack in the head has been caused by differences in temperature around the head.
As they have vetted the cooling system basically entirely, they believe the fan running apparently before the thermostat opens (when I was in there, I witnessed them measure the temp at 80 degrees, they are now saying it is running when the car reaches 72 degrees) is causing the thermostat to open and close when it shouldn't be. I did not really feel like this was good enough.
A few things they tried to put across to me was;
- I pointed out that the fan was running when it shouldn't be and it should be investigated. But I cannot force you to fix this if you didn't want to.
I said this is true, but you said it would cause stress to the electrical system - not cause the head to crack.
- If the fan is not running as intended from factory, you can not say that your cooling system is running properly - there is an issue there.
Refer to my points across, that they werent able to answer but this point still came up another 4 times.
- They mentioned that there were a number of items that they pointed out that I left and didn't fix right away. Mind you, they did say to me they weren't urgent and wouldn't impact the car at all. Just for transparency, I will list them below. I believe I have taken care of this car as best I can, it has never missed a service in my ownership - every 5k (oil filter etc) and all fluids other every 20k, filled with 98 Ron Petrol ALWAYS. Genuine parts where necessary - FFS i chose their $50 genuine rad cap over the $15 one. Sorry this one bothered me a bit.
We have noted and informed you all the problems that existed (including the fan and ecu issues) i.e. Tailshaft Boot was torn and Tailshaft Joint has play (diagnosed on 7/8/15). However, the problem was ignored until Tailshaft replacement required later in Septemer 2017. Your boost solenoids are damaged, your Rear Diff bushes are cracked, car has wrong catback and hitting rear bar, battery terminal needs to be recrimped as the loom was hacked, car still have standard fuel pump and fuel filter which can give trouble later if failed or blocked.
Sorry for the long posts, I'm trying to give all the info I can while still being objective as I do not want to give a business a bad name if I am wrong and I am man enough to take responsibility if I am at fault.