LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

Removing a few thousandths be Decking the block and head does advance the cams 8*. A 4g64 block with a 6mm taller deck only changes came time ~3.5*.

Cam timing does not net 15-20% whp gains, that means the 850whp car I finished last weekend left over 100whp on the table? No...

heel2toe

iTrader: (41)

This has got a little bit out of hand already. There have been some factual statements as well as other bold claims that are not so factual in regards to certain cams. Is degreeing cams the correct thing to do? Yes of course it is. Could it leave some power on the table, sure. But over the years various cams have been available in the market catered towards evos and its been proven time and time again that certain manufactures are very good about being true to their card installed straight up and others are using inferior core, regrinds etc etc.

I ran S2s for years and didnt degree them and they were fine. Did I leave some power on the tablle, maybe. A noticeable amount of power, most likely no.

Now fast forward to last year with my new motor. At this point head has been decked a few times and block was also resurfaced. I installed an English Racing underdrive oil pump gear which end up changing timing so you no longer install the cams straight up. Its been a little bit but ER told me something like theyve tested the GSC cams and there are very true to the card, no need to degree and I think it was retard instake and exhaust something like 3 degrees. I had engine on stand and thought it would be a good learning experience to degree the cams anyway and see what I could come up with. Once again they said do not worry about it but hey like I said engine was on stand and thought it would be interesting. I ended up going through hell at first as I was screwing up the math some. But long story short after all of this the settings I ended up with were like exactly what ER told me to set them to. Its almost as if they had done that before, lol!

So now youre thinking "oh well you didnt install the cams straight up". Well correct I didnt however that was solely due to their underdrive oil pump gear. If I didnt have that it would have ended up straight up.

Yes, surfaces have been machined so these will have an impact on timing. But like LGTD just pointed out, 6mm different in deck height yields 3.5 degrees. So taking out a couple thousandths...is that even quantifiable and can you make sure exact tweaks to cam gear where the hash marks are defined by 1 degree?

Biggiesacks

Just to clarify, Marios when you say zero out the cams are you suggesting to retard the cams to zero advance? Or do you mean adjusting them so there is 0 deviance from the cam card. I can't imagine running zero advance being any good for our purposes. If you want to check p to v clearance it should be done with the max advance you intend to run.

I think the major disconnect here is that gsc s2's, as well as other cams, have established trust within this community. So when we say you will be fine it's based on the collective knowledge and experience of the community using this product over time. If someone just handed me some random cams and a card I would for sure measure the crap out of them before running them.

MinusPrevious

iTrader: (3)

From my casual mechanical eye: I think we are missing some of the finer points

Theres more to increasing WHP than slapping parts in w/out proper adjustment

Im kinda signing on to the following: (not limited to)

• Proper high flow intake (Magnus or similar)
• SD intake
• Proper exhaust mani (FP or tubular)
• Proper cams (using Adj cam gears?)

Seems like adding these efficiencies will certainly net some gain w/less stress on the components (it all costs, i get that$$$)

Biggiesacks

I'm not sure what your trying to say, esp in the context of this thread, but I have none of those things.

MinusPrevious

iTrader: (3)

^^^Just noting that we should not be discounting what appears to be a viable tuning method (degreeing cams)

There was another thread, not long ago, noting the efficiencies of using high flow manifolds. Many responsders were simply saying its not necessary & not required

Just saying, there maybe some basic fundamentals here that offer positive rewards (maybe we should be running adj cam gears when tuning S2's?)

BTW, the OP who started this has yet to comment LOL

Nikoro

I just reading the whole thread. ofc I bought adjustable tomei camgear for the exhaust camshaft only because I will not cancel the MIVEC

Biggiesacks

yes tuning cams is good. That is not the same as degreeing them though. Degreeing is something that's done during engine assembly to verify that the cams match a spec. Tuning an engine for optimal performance is something that's done on a dyno etc. In theory I could throw on an adj. cam gear, turn the cam as advanced as it will allow, and verify piston to valve is good. Then go to town on a dyno adjusting the cam gear looking for what works best, all without ever having degreed the cam. Again degreeing the cam is a good thing to do, not arguing that. It's useful for knowing where your baseline is, and adjusting it if desired.

Fox_IX

This is how we've always tuned cams. We would degree them with the card and wheel just to verify during engine assembly, but doing dyno pulls at max advance and max retard was the quickest way to get the power graph to match the set up. It's easier with MIVEC since you can just do intake advance through software instead of having to shut down the engine each time you want to adjust.

hutch959

iTrader: (18)

assuming the motor is mostly stock.. .there is no real reason to "degree" in the cams. just install them

if you motor is a different block, or the deck height has been changed.. .then it probably a good idea.

all the arguments above are good arguments..... but geez guys... dont confuse the poor guy

Evo8cy

I already know all that in regards to valve clearance, and already said it, hence my previous comments. Clearance is not only down to calculating in the right amount of space, it is also down to using the right timing degrees on the events of camshaft/valve sequence in relation to crankshaft/piston movement and position. The card on an aftermarket set of cams tells you at what degrees their events happen in regards to TDC. Having those values enables one to correct the cams and put them at zero. The process is not a simple verification process, verification is only a certain part of the process. Zero means no advance and no retard in relation to TDC. When an aftermarket cam is placed on an engine on stock markings without going through the proper process that cam set could be all over the place in relation to advance and retard positions. One camshaft could be retarded, and the other advanced i.e, or the other way around, they could be at any combo in relation to TDC.


In regards to billet vs cast, if the casting process is a high end one, there will be no difference between billet vs a cast part. The reason the billet process is used, especially by small companies is because it is a cheaper and more cost effective method of creating a part.



If everything regarding a build, measurement and calculations, along with the use of the right parts is the case,and the cams are dialed in in order to gain the best outcome and in relation to valve clearance, then there is no problem. Whatever I mention here I have already done numerous times, and I already know in applied action what is what, what works, how it works.




Repeating myself zeroing the cams, and then dialing them for optimum result is a must and it is required. The s2 may work without zeroing them, but they do not give the optimum result without dialing them in. Since you do not know the specific of his engine, whether he machined parts, how much, what rpm he is going to have his limiter on, what type of springs and retainers he is going to use, if he is not going to use any uprated springs, what is the condition of his oem ones, my advice to him is to do things by the book, for max safety of his engine and best results.



This not a case of trust but verify, and when you truly trust something you do not need to verify anything, but this comment is irrelevant here. The process is done to correct things not to merely verify them. In order to verify you need to correct first.




To me it is required, now if you do not wish to do that, that is your choice, but I will not advice someone to cut corners on the matter just because one does not have the willpower and patience to do some work the proper way.












Marios

Evo8cy

Watch the video I posted. To me nothing is established on such matters, until I establish it myself.










Marios

Evo8cy

No degreeing a camshaft is to move the camsaft around on an adjustable pulley until it is located in the desired position.


One will need to degree the camshaft to zero it, in other words, to bring the camshaft to its true zero position at TDC. If the zeroing process is not done, then at stock TDC at stock markings the camshaft will be either advance or retarded, and not at true zero position.

One will also degree a camshaft when he wants to move it around weather he wishes to retard or advance it, so as to gain the max out of the set in regards to his specific setup.


The zeroing camshaft procedure is not to verify things, it is to correct things, verification is only a step in the correcting procedure, in other words the card gives you the right values according to the manufacturer on which the aftermarket camshafts need to be placed at.



Watch the video.













Marios

Nikoro

I got stock internals. My engine has 75k kiliometers. I also bought with s2's , gsc 5041 valve spring/retainer kit. I bought tomei camshaft pulley and id 1050x. I also use stock turbo at the moment so i will not plan reving over 8k ! Thanks all for the help and advices guys!

Evo8cy

I can design a camshaft can you? Judging by the above statement, obviously not. On the contrary you do not defy physics by any measure or aspect,by zeroing and dialing in the cams at a combo, you verify it instead.


In mere regards to numbers, I believe there was someone on here with an fp red with around 650whp on a dynojet.




You would be surprised how much of a difference zeroing and dialing in at the right combo for a specific setup, can do for its powerband , dynamic compression and V.E.



540whp( 630-640 on DJ) on a low reader on an fp black on 100 oct, with proper cam dialing.








Marios