Turbo Trix reflashing the BR500
Ok, everyone has said their version, side, feelings, etc. Now, why don't we just leave it as it is. Evo8 went to Turbotrix because he's closer to them. He got a good tune, and the numbers are the numbers, period. You can obtain anything you want from this, but it's not that big of a deal. As long as Evo8power is happy and his car runs good, then who cares. You don't have to defend your tuner, because there are no accusations. Mark and Al are both great guys to hang out with and both offer nice product, so go to whomever you choose.
I want to add something else.
Kevin is the car owner. At Pruven's shop with Al tuning the car he made ---whp. The car ran fine when he left the shop. He was happy with how the car ran but wasn't very pleased with the WHP. Kevin called our shop and talked to me about what I thought was wrong with the car. I told him I thought he needed to get rid of the necked down HKS suction kit, the stock BOV and such. He then added our MAS pipe, filter kit, upper i/c pipe with the 1g BOV and the mini-battery kit. I sent the parts to him. He called after getting them on the car and said the car THEN ran crappy and sputtered. Tym told him that the car was more than likely out of tune and would have to be re-tuned. This is when Kevin decided to go to Turbo Trix to get it tuned, for whatever reasons.
My point is the HP that the car made when it came in the door for the first two passes mean absolutely freaking nothing. The car was NOT running correctly OR the same as it was when Al tuned it the first time. It is absolutely obvious to anyone with half...hell a 1/4 of a brain that something changed in the tune from the first time Al did it to the next time it was tuned. The car didn't spit and sputter after Al finished it, it did it when more parts were added to the mix.
Comparing the initial 330 whp that it made when it wasn't running correctly from the parts change to the 348 whp it made afterwards isn't exactly a good comparison.
Let's keep this stuff real.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Kevin is the car owner. At Pruven's shop with Al tuning the car he made ---whp. The car ran fine when he left the shop. He was happy with how the car ran but wasn't very pleased with the WHP. Kevin called our shop and talked to me about what I thought was wrong with the car. I told him I thought he needed to get rid of the necked down HKS suction kit, the stock BOV and such. He then added our MAS pipe, filter kit, upper i/c pipe with the 1g BOV and the mini-battery kit. I sent the parts to him. He called after getting them on the car and said the car THEN ran crappy and sputtered. Tym told him that the car was more than likely out of tune and would have to be re-tuned. This is when Kevin decided to go to Turbo Trix to get it tuned, for whatever reasons.
My point is the HP that the car made when it came in the door for the first two passes mean absolutely freaking nothing. The car was NOT running correctly OR the same as it was when Al tuned it the first time. It is absolutely obvious to anyone with half...hell a 1/4 of a brain that something changed in the tune from the first time Al did it to the next time it was tuned. The car didn't spit and sputter after Al finished it, it did it when more parts were added to the mix.
Comparing the initial 330 whp that it made when it wasn't running correctly from the parts change to the 348 whp it made afterwards isn't exactly a good comparison.
Let's keep this stuff real.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Here is some information I just learned from Al, he called me.
We haven't tuned anyone else's parts here, well not many. Most of the guys that come to our shop have our parts only on the car and that is what we tune. We could, just don't get the chance.
Anyway, Al explained to me that with the reflash when you use the HKS suction kit the parameters in it have to be set to FF, which is as rich as you can set it. The HKS suction kit I guess throws the air fuel way off and this is what has to be done to compensate.
He went on to explain that when he flashes a car with our intake on it this is completely different as ours does not throw it off as much and the air fuel ratio doesn't have to maxed out like this.
With this said it makes perfect sense that switching from the HKS Suction kit to our MAS pipe and air filter kit would have had the car running VERY rich, just as Mark said. This also makes it very unfair to compare the before and after tunes.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
We haven't tuned anyone else's parts here, well not many. Most of the guys that come to our shop have our parts only on the car and that is what we tune. We could, just don't get the chance.
Anyway, Al explained to me that with the reflash when you use the HKS suction kit the parameters in it have to be set to FF, which is as rich as you can set it. The HKS suction kit I guess throws the air fuel way off and this is what has to be done to compensate.
He went on to explain that when he flashes a car with our intake on it this is completely different as ours does not throw it off as much and the air fuel ratio doesn't have to maxed out like this.
With this said it makes perfect sense that switching from the HKS Suction kit to our MAS pipe and air filter kit would have had the car running VERY rich, just as Mark said. This also makes it very unfair to compare the before and after tunes.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
evo8power, you were just talking with al, who is very amused by the lack of understanding that apparently the expert tuners have for the evo 8 Engine management system.
at pruven you had the HKS RS kit on your car, that intake requires extremely high hexadecimal code settings in the a/f tables in order to compensate for the MAF inaccuracies created by the HKS RS kit.
once, the MAF table is calibrated to the intake the a/f ratio will be constant and steady. in this case you (evo8power), elected to substitute the BR air intake for the HKS RS kit. the buschur racing intake kit, reads the MAF much accurately than the HKS RS kit. and does not require an accentuated enrichment of the MAF tables.
in fact, the BR kit, requires a slight lowering of the a/f tables, which is the exact opposite of the HKS RS kit. in short changing out these intakes requires a completely different tune. this is why the BuschurFlash is designed to work exclusively with Buschur parts.
removing one air intake, substituting another brand, and then attempting to make an assessment of the tune on the dyno is completely meaningless. all that can be rationally determined is that somehow, evo8power is making much less WHP that he should be at this time.
at pruven you had the HKS RS kit on your car, that intake requires extremely high hexadecimal code settings in the a/f tables in order to compensate for the MAF inaccuracies created by the HKS RS kit.
once, the MAF table is calibrated to the intake the a/f ratio will be constant and steady. in this case you (evo8power), elected to substitute the BR air intake for the HKS RS kit. the buschur racing intake kit, reads the MAF much accurately than the HKS RS kit. and does not require an accentuated enrichment of the MAF tables.
in fact, the BR kit, requires a slight lowering of the a/f tables, which is the exact opposite of the HKS RS kit. in short changing out these intakes requires a completely different tune. this is why the BuschurFlash is designed to work exclusively with Buschur parts.
removing one air intake, substituting another brand, and then attempting to make an assessment of the tune on the dyno is completely meaningless. all that can be rationally determined is that somehow, evo8power is making much less WHP that he should be at this time.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Here is some information I just learned from Al, he called me.
We haven't tuned anyone else's parts here, well not many. Most of the guys that come to our shop have our parts only on the car and that is what we tune. We could, just don't get the chance.
Anyway, Al explained to me that with the reflash when you use the HKS suction kit the parameters in it have to be set to FF, which is as rich as you can set it. The HKS suction kit I guess throws the air fuel way off and this is what has to be done to compensate.
He went on to explain that when he flashes a car with our intake on it this is completely different as ours does not throw it off as much and the air fuel ratio doesn't have to maxed out like this.
With this said it makes perfect sense that switching from the HKS Suction kit to our MAS pipe and air filter kit would have had the car running VERY rich, just as Mark said. This also makes it very unfair to compare the before and after tunes.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
We haven't tuned anyone else's parts here, well not many. Most of the guys that come to our shop have our parts only on the car and that is what we tune. We could, just don't get the chance.
Anyway, Al explained to me that with the reflash when you use the HKS suction kit the parameters in it have to be set to FF, which is as rich as you can set it. The HKS suction kit I guess throws the air fuel way off and this is what has to be done to compensate.
He went on to explain that when he flashes a car with our intake on it this is completely different as ours does not throw it off as much and the air fuel ratio doesn't have to maxed out like this.
With this said it makes perfect sense that switching from the HKS Suction kit to our MAS pipe and air filter kit would have had the car running VERY rich, just as Mark said. This also makes it very unfair to compare the before and after tunes.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Mark
turbotrix racing
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Anyway, Al explained to me that with the reflash when you use the HKS suction kit the parameters in it have to be set to FF, which is as rich as you can set it.
If we're going to get technical, the BR500 doesn't seem so great on pump gas. The guy Al tuned who made 440whp on C16 made 366 on 93 (full stage 4). Evo8Power made 348 (stock IC), which isn't bad, but Mark tuned lots of stock turbo's for more than that (the one's I witnessed had the AEM EMS). Heck, I made 340Whp (and I was the lowest whp out of the 4 we tuned - although I didn't have CAMs) uncorrected on a 80+ degree day with no cooldowns on the stock turbo and Buschur stage 1. So maybe the turbo has great spool and nice C16 power potential, but the pump gas numbers from Pruven and Turbotrix are a little low. I would hope for 400whp on 93 if I'm spending $2500.
Originally Posted by metaphysical
If we're going to get technical, the BR500 doesn't seem so great on pump gas. The guy Al tuned who made 440whp on C16 made 366 on 93 (full stage 4). Evo8Power made 348 (stock IC), which isn't bad, but Mark tuned lots of stock turbo's for more than that (the one's I witnessed had the AEM EMS). Heck, I made 340Whp (and I was the lowest whp out of the 4 we tuned - although I didn't have CAMs) uncorrected on a 80+ degree day with no cooldowns on the stock turbo and Buschur stage 1. So maybe the turbo has great spool and nice C16 power potential, but the pump gas numbers from Pruven and Turbotrix are a little low. I would hope for 400whp on 93 if I'm spending $2500.
Last edited by GOKOU; Jul 21, 2004 at 09:26 PM.
I made 333WHP and 370 FP's on 21PSI and pump gas Flash from TT. Tuning is key.
Hey Mark, this weekend I am putting on IC pipes, will my car need to be reflashed now? They are the complete UR set....
Hey Mark, this weekend I am putting on IC pipes, will my car need to be reflashed now? They are the complete UR set....
Evolving Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: Cincinnati Ohio
420 whp on pump?
Originally Posted by Zeus
I've yet to be impressed with any Evo pump gas numbers (anyone's kit!)... I'd be happy to see 3/4s the power the DSM camps have extracted on pump gas...
Thanks
Mike
Damn 348 whp with an upgraded turbo? Very interesting results. I made 366.5 and 358lb tq stock turbo and on pump without the fans on infront of my car.
Did you have a cat? I'm waiting on the turbotirx turbo kit cuz I'm praying It'll make 430-450whp on pump and 500+ on race. Dual BB owns me!!!!
Did you have a cat? I'm waiting on the turbotirx turbo kit cuz I'm praying It'll make 430-450whp on pump and 500+ on race. Dual BB owns me!!!!
Well, the BR500 pump gas numbers are low, but is this the case with other kits? Can Mark or Al chime in? I know RnR made 390whp on 91 octane on a dyno dynamics dyno. That's the equivalent of probably 440whp on a dynojet on 93. Granted they ran a larger turbo than the BR500, but if your not autocrossing, take the power on 93, or at least that's my opinion. And Al made 417whp on 93 octane with a reflash and 93 octane on his 3037.