Considering the MR? Something to consider...
I am buying an 05 gsr with ssl for about a grand less than an mr. I just want to have all the comforts of ssl, I know that for a little bit more, I can get an mr but is one extra gear and no moonroof worth it? The only thing i wish i could get is the metallic grey paint. However, unless you drive 10/10ths all the time, race constantly on a course(not qt mile), or want a collector car, i do not think the mr is worth it. Maybe a mrfq340 from europe would be worth it but once again, the usdm gets a watered down version!
Originally Posted by danc
Maybe I'm missing something here, but...
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/cor...001/13E_09.pdf
Look at page 2, Figure 2. This describes torque-split. The first full paragraph on the right describes figure 2, ending with "... should be established at about 30:70."
Why would they talk about a rear-split greater than 50% if it couldn't do it?
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/cor...001/13E_09.pdf
Look at page 2, Figure 2. This describes torque-split. The first full paragraph on the right describes figure 2, ending with "... should be established at about 30:70."
Why would they talk about a rear-split greater than 50% if it couldn't do it?
Originally Posted by modvp
I think it means that up to 70% goes to the front (remember the system is designed as a front driver) and 30% the the rear...no more than 50% is directed towards the rear wheels.
They then say (in the last paragraph of section 2.1) that for the base ratio the best compromise is a 50/50 ratio..... and that is what they have ours established at.
Later,
Keith
Originally Posted by mrbkkt1
I am buying an 05 gsr with ssl for about a grand less than an mr. I just want to have all the comforts of ssl, I know that for a little bit more, I can get an mr but is one extra gear and no moonroof worth it? The only thing i wish i could get is the metallic grey paint. However, unless you drive 10/10ths all the time, race constantly on a course(not qt mile), or want a collector car, i do not think the mr is worth it. Maybe a mrfq340 from europe would be worth it but once again, the usdm gets a watered down version!
joe, you say you have never heard of anyone getting an MR less than sticker. Well brother, you've been douped. I am getting mine at 400 over invoice.
When listeing to you and neil duke it out...I have to ask myself this, this coming from a consumer standing outside of the boxing ring. I repect both your opinions but this going to be directed more at joe.
Which is better to listen to:
Neil
Works for MT(drives cars like this on a daily basis) (owns an 03)
Has driven the MR
Has driven the Elise
Joe
Does autocross(w/ 03 evo..guessing)
Has not driven the MR
Probably has not driven the elise
(not saying you havn't)
You draw your own conclusions??!
Joe, I think you have to ask yourself....if you are going to attack the MR with that kind of thinking(the 05 GSR being a better deal than the MR) is the 05 GSR going to be that much better than the 03 GSR? Will most people be able to tell the difference that don't race? Probably not. So why is the 05 GSR a better car than the 03?? In my opinion this attacking of the MR is pointless or unfair to say the least. Because it is very one sided. You need to take an objective view of your current car (assuming you have an 03) and compare it to the 05 GSR. Then take your view of the '03 GSR and copare it to the MR. In my opinion if I am going to make the jump to an 05 I want the HID's back(i think most would agree here, and also not to mention all the other fun stuff the MR comes with!). And the 05 GSR does not come with them. You will have to spend, llike said before, over 33 grand to get this. Which is not far off the MR price. You will be downgrading your new Evo in certain aspects by buying the non-ssl 05 GSR. I am not saying all this over some HID headlamps. I am saying this because your view is very hindered to your personal opinion and not a view by taking a step back and looking at what is available at all the price levels and comparing them to what you currently have(again assuming you have an 03....I am going off what it says you drive). Joe I am not bashing you by any means, I actually enjoyed reading you and neil in a decent disscusion. Doesn't happen much on these boards. This is just my view of it standing on the outside.
When listeing to you and neil duke it out...I have to ask myself this, this coming from a consumer standing outside of the boxing ring. I repect both your opinions but this going to be directed more at joe.
Which is better to listen to:
Neil
Works for MT(drives cars like this on a daily basis) (owns an 03)
Has driven the MR
Has driven the Elise
Joe
Does autocross(w/ 03 evo..guessing)
Has not driven the MR
Probably has not driven the elise
(not saying you havn't)
You draw your own conclusions??!
Joe, I think you have to ask yourself....if you are going to attack the MR with that kind of thinking(the 05 GSR being a better deal than the MR) is the 05 GSR going to be that much better than the 03 GSR? Will most people be able to tell the difference that don't race? Probably not. So why is the 05 GSR a better car than the 03?? In my opinion this attacking of the MR is pointless or unfair to say the least. Because it is very one sided. You need to take an objective view of your current car (assuming you have an 03) and compare it to the 05 GSR. Then take your view of the '03 GSR and copare it to the MR. In my opinion if I am going to make the jump to an 05 I want the HID's back(i think most would agree here, and also not to mention all the other fun stuff the MR comes with!). And the 05 GSR does not come with them. You will have to spend, llike said before, over 33 grand to get this. Which is not far off the MR price. You will be downgrading your new Evo in certain aspects by buying the non-ssl 05 GSR. I am not saying all this over some HID headlamps. I am saying this because your view is very hindered to your personal opinion and not a view by taking a step back and looking at what is available at all the price levels and comparing them to what you currently have(again assuming you have an 03....I am going off what it says you drive). Joe I am not bashing you by any means, I actually enjoyed reading you and neil in a decent disscusion. Doesn't happen much on these boards. This is just my view of it standing on the outside.
Last edited by favre95; Oct 17, 2004 at 06:12 AM.
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Great posts Joe250 and GPtourer & Neil.
Im glad this thread is goin this way unlike the past flame fests. You all bring up very valid concerns....concerns any1 looking at the 03gsr versus the MR and 05gsr would be worried about.
I have waited to pull the trigger on the evo till 05. Would I trade in an 03 (if I had one) on any 05 (mr included) ? No. Can I afford the MR over the regular 05 and justify the price difference to myself and take the added on parts and price to have a more loaded stock package? Yes. To each their own.
Again, some great issues addressed in this thread, thanks!
Im glad this thread is goin this way unlike the past flame fests. You all bring up very valid concerns....concerns any1 looking at the 03gsr versus the MR and 05gsr would be worried about.
I have waited to pull the trigger on the evo till 05. Would I trade in an 03 (if I had one) on any 05 (mr included) ? No. Can I afford the MR over the regular 05 and justify the price difference to myself and take the added on parts and price to have a more loaded stock package? Yes. To each their own.
Again, some great issues addressed in this thread, thanks!
Originally Posted by wilson1
Having a MR and a 03 in my garage right now, i can tell the difference right away. 
I think it gets blown all out of proportion cuz the MR is more exclusive and people try to verify that it's really not worth it's extra cost over the GSR. That's why Mitsubishi has 3 different evo models to suit different tastes.
I think it gets blown all out of proportion cuz the MR is more exclusive and people try to verify that it's really not worth it's extra cost over the GSR. That's why Mitsubishi has 3 different evo models to suit different tastes.
a) He could tell the difference right away still doing break-in miles and he still owns his '03 Evo.
b) I agree that many people are trying to justify the extra cost of the MR over a GSR. If you have to justify it, don't buy one, get the GSR or the RS. They are all great cars, heck they are all Evos! They are all part of the same family, and just like any family they are all slightly different, but still family. It's all good!
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Originally Posted by favre95
joe, you say you have never heard of anyone getting an MR less than sticker. Well brother, you've been douped. I am getting mine at 400 over invoice.
When listeing to you and neil duke it out...I have to ask myself this, this coming from a consumer standing outside of the boxing ring. I repect both your opinions but this going to be directed more at joe.
Which is better to listen to:
Neil
Works for MT(drives cars like this on a daily basis) (owns an 03)
Has driven the MR
Has driven the Elise
Joe
Does autocross(w/ 03 evo..guessing)
Has not driven the MR
Probably has not driven the elise
(not saying you havn't)
You draw your own conclusions??!
Joe, I think you have to ask yourself....if you are going to attack the MR with that kind of thinking(the 05 GSR being a better deal than the MR) is the 05 GSR going to be that much better than the 03 GSR? Will most people be able to tell the difference that don't race? Probably not. So why is the 05 GSR a better car than the 03?? In my opinion this attacking of the MR is pointless or unfair to say the least. Because it is very one sided. You need to take an objective view of your current car (assuming you have an 03) and compare it to the 05 GSR. Then take your view of the '03 GSR and copare it to the MR. In my opinion if I am going to make the jump to an 05 I want the HID's back(i think most would agree here, and also not to mention all the other fun stuff the MR comes with!). And the 05 GSR does not come with them. You will have to spend, llike said before, over 33 grand to get this. Which is not far off the MR price. You will be downgrading your new Evo in certain aspects by buying the non-ssl 05 GSR. I am not saying all this over some HID headlamps. I am saying this because your view is very hindered to your personal opinion and not a view by taking a step back and looking at what is available at all the price levels and comparing them to what you currently have(again assuming you have an 03....I am going off what it says you drive). Joe I am not bashing you by any means, I actually enjoyed reading you and neil in a decent disscusion. Doesn't happen much on these boards. This is just my view of it standing on the outside.
When listeing to you and neil duke it out...I have to ask myself this, this coming from a consumer standing outside of the boxing ring. I repect both your opinions but this going to be directed more at joe.
Which is better to listen to:
Neil
Works for MT(drives cars like this on a daily basis) (owns an 03)
Has driven the MR
Has driven the Elise
Joe
Does autocross(w/ 03 evo..guessing)
Has not driven the MR
Probably has not driven the elise
(not saying you havn't)
You draw your own conclusions??!
Joe, I think you have to ask yourself....if you are going to attack the MR with that kind of thinking(the 05 GSR being a better deal than the MR) is the 05 GSR going to be that much better than the 03 GSR? Will most people be able to tell the difference that don't race? Probably not. So why is the 05 GSR a better car than the 03?? In my opinion this attacking of the MR is pointless or unfair to say the least. Because it is very one sided. You need to take an objective view of your current car (assuming you have an 03) and compare it to the 05 GSR. Then take your view of the '03 GSR and copare it to the MR. In my opinion if I am going to make the jump to an 05 I want the HID's back(i think most would agree here, and also not to mention all the other fun stuff the MR comes with!). And the 05 GSR does not come with them. You will have to spend, llike said before, over 33 grand to get this. Which is not far off the MR price. You will be downgrading your new Evo in certain aspects by buying the non-ssl 05 GSR. I am not saying all this over some HID headlamps. I am saying this because your view is very hindered to your personal opinion and not a view by taking a step back and looking at what is available at all the price levels and comparing them to what you currently have(again assuming you have an 03....I am going off what it says you drive). Joe I am not bashing you by any means, I actually enjoyed reading you and neil in a decent disscusion. Doesn't happen much on these boards. This is just my view of it standing on the outside.
Never said it couldn't/hasn't/won't happen. Just saying that of all the posts I've read, no one who actually currently owns an MR (and you apparently are not part of this group) has paid less than MSRP. My point really is that it should be a lot easier for the average Evo buyer to negotiate a GSR to a near-invoice price than an MR.Who is better to listen to? Neil has driven the MR and I haven't. That is worth something. The fact that he works for MT is a detriment. I worked 6 years in the auto industry. MT had about as low a reputation as a magazine can among the people I worked with. Read my posts, read my website. Decide for yourself if my opinons are worth anything. Your call. Just driving various cars all day doesn't automatically make your opinions more valuable. My mom drove my Mcoupe once and gushed about the car. Why? It had heated seats.
"Is the 05 GSR going to be that much better than the 03 GSR? Will most people be able to tell the difference that don't race? Probably not. "
Are you not getting it? Did you not read everything I've had to say? Do you understand the words coming outta my mouth?
If people can't tell the difference between the '03 GSR and the '05 GSR, then I'd bet money they wouldn't be able to tell a difference between the '03 GSR and the MR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Because there is little TANGIBLE difference between the '05 GSR and the MR, driving-wise.
Ugh. I give up.
Joe
*Let me clarify - I'm not trying to be too mean to Neil. I have a very strong personal opinion about MT, and an even stronger opinion about the people who blindly listen to them. Neil is obviously an Evo enthusiast and a car nut, which is cool with me. Sorry if I come across a bit harsh. Just trying to make my point.
Last edited by Joe250; Oct 17, 2004 at 10:03 AM.
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That's it.
Originally Posted by EVO Neil
I think wilson1 sums it up best, this from an MR owner.
a) He could tell the difference right away still doing break-in miles and he still owns his '03 Evo.
b) I agree that many people are trying to justify the extra cost of the MR over a GSR. If you have to justify it, don't buy one, get the GSR or the RS. They are all great cars, heck they are all Evos! They are all part of the same family, and just like any family they are all slightly different, but still family. It's all good!
a) He could tell the difference right away still doing break-in miles and he still owns his '03 Evo.
b) I agree that many people are trying to justify the extra cost of the MR over a GSR. If you have to justify it, don't buy one, get the GSR or the RS. They are all great cars, heck they are all Evos! They are all part of the same family, and just like any family they are all slightly different, but still family. It's all good!
That really is my whole point. I can tell an obvious difference between my '03 GSR and my '05 GSR. Several differences in fact. Power, handling, steering, engine smoothness. It looks like the '05 even idles slightly higher. If you push the car at all, the differences are obvious.
So here it is, the $64,000 question: Will Joe Evo Buyer be able to climb into an MR after driving an '05 GSR and tell the difference? Who has driven them extensively back-to-back? I haven't. I don't think Neil has. If anyone has, please share your findings.
The $128,000 question: Will Joe Evo Buyer get $5,000+ more enjoyment out of the MR? Depends upon what 5,000+ dollars means to you I suppose. But I'm thinking the answer is no. And he won't be significantly faster in real-world driving either.
So for the umpteenth time: if the performance improvements of the MR over the '03 GSR appeal to you, consider the '05 GSR. It has almost all the substantial improvments of the MR, but at a significantly lower price.
FAQ Section (please read slowly
):Q: So you think the MR sucks.
A: No. Quite the opposite. I like the MR. It looks great and it is teh faster.
Q: Then why get the GSR?
A: Same great MR taste, but just one calorie.
Q: Why are you attacking the MR?
A: I hate my life. Now I really am giving up. Goodbye.
Q: You hate your life cuz you don't have an MR I bet!
A: ...
Joe
www.joe250.com
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From: Portland, OR
Originally Posted by modvp
I think it means that up to 70% goes to the front (remember the system is designed as a front driver) and 30% the the rear...no more than 50% is directed towards the rear wheels.
Originally Posted by Joe250
The fact that he works for MT is a detriment. I worked 6 years in the auto industry. MT had about as low a reputation as a magazine can among the people I worked with.
Joe
*Let me clarify - I'm not trying to be too mean to Neil. I have a very strong personal opinion about MT, and an even stronger opinion about the people who blindly listen to them. Neil is obviously an Evo enthusiast and a car nut, which is cool with me. Sorry if I come across a bit harsh. Just trying to make my point.
Joe
*Let me clarify - I'm not trying to be too mean to Neil. I have a very strong personal opinion about MT, and an even stronger opinion about the people who blindly listen to them. Neil is obviously an Evo enthusiast and a car nut, which is cool with me. Sorry if I come across a bit harsh. Just trying to make my point.
just to add a bit of fuel to the fire
first off you mention,reguarding the roof that lowering a car 1.9~inches will make an obvious difference. that's true but the new roof as the effect of lowering the old roof by that distance.
it only has an overall effect of lowering the while car by 2mm. less than 1/10th of an inch.
in a real racecar 2mm. can make a huge difference in the way the aero package works, but you can't possibly believe that "random driver" is going to be able to pick out the correct street car if you put him in 10 cars back to back with one lowered 2mm. i'd be impressed if you could even do it visually, much less by handling alone.
also after all this talk about how 8 lbs. off the roof is so apparent that anyone off the street would be able to feel the difference you then proceed to tell someone on this thread that they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the regular evo and the 66lb. lighter rs.
one last thing, i think you said that you'll notice the ACD/LSD in the first hi-speed sweeper you run through. i would think that's the last place you'd feel it. i would think tighter turns where getting on the power earlier causes the inner front to start to break loose is were the ACD comes into play. if your inner is spinning, flat in 4th through a sweeper, your probably in the middle of something very happening
i just find it interesting, that's all.
maybe you could clarify for me
ps. i love the MR, i just have to agree with joe that the roof is probably least performance
enhancing of the (diff,turbo,bilsteins,roof) list.
first off you mention,reguarding the roof that lowering a car 1.9~inches will make an obvious difference. that's true but the new roof as the effect of lowering the old roof by that distance.
it only has an overall effect of lowering the while car by 2mm. less than 1/10th of an inch.
in a real racecar 2mm. can make a huge difference in the way the aero package works, but you can't possibly believe that "random driver" is going to be able to pick out the correct street car if you put him in 10 cars back to back with one lowered 2mm. i'd be impressed if you could even do it visually, much less by handling alone.
also after all this talk about how 8 lbs. off the roof is so apparent that anyone off the street would be able to feel the difference you then proceed to tell someone on this thread that they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the regular evo and the 66lb. lighter rs.
one last thing, i think you said that you'll notice the ACD/LSD in the first hi-speed sweeper you run through. i would think that's the last place you'd feel it. i would think tighter turns where getting on the power earlier causes the inner front to start to break loose is were the ACD comes into play. if your inner is spinning, flat in 4th through a sweeper, your probably in the middle of something very happening
i just find it interesting, that's all.
maybe you could clarify for me
ps. i love the MR, i just have to agree with joe that the roof is probably least performance
enhancing of the (diff,turbo,bilsteins,roof) list.
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.
Originally Posted by EVO Neil
Wow, that is a surprising statement. So, I'm guilty by association? Nice, glad you know me so well. Funny, when I was at edmunds.com I also heard some rumors about Motor Trend's previous reputation. BTW, I wouldn't have taken the job if the rumors were true. Now that I've been there almost three years under two different (and reputal) editor-in-chiefs I can honestly say, that I've never experienced any of what I heard. Now, it IS possible that some of what I heard did happen, but that would be in the past. Why would you hold that against me? Seems to me to be a bit unfair and biased. How many Pro Solo wins do you have?
How am I supposed to react when anyone says that 8lbs off the roof means so much to the performance of the car? I don't care who they are, I think that is a silly statement. When I then realized that you work for a magazine I don't think much of, well I couldn't let that go. Especially when people are agreeing with your statements because your employer somehow gives you more credibility. Crazy.
How many Pro Solo wins do I have? Zero. What does that have to do with me pointing out to people that the '05 GSR is a great alternative to the MR for the money? And where did I claim to be a great driver? I would prefer not to turn this into an insult fest, so please add more if it relates to the topic at hand.
Joe
www.joe250.com
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Originally Posted by Joe250
How am I supposed to react when anyone says that 8lbs off the roof means so much to the performance of the car? I don't care who they are, I think that is a silly statement.
Regardless of all that it was you who got personal first and took shots at M/T first as if Neil's opinion was totally compromised because of who he worked for - when it is his organization that has produced the only valid test data so far. Why is that? Oh but wait, don't mind me - I sell Mitsus. Your probably thinking I get extra compensation to post on this forum in my free time about a vehicle I am passionate about. So let me save you the trouble of listening to what I say and just recommend forgetting the whole thing. You have made up your mind and no one is trying to show you up as being wrong. It just seems odd for you to ask questions in an open forum and then basically insult a person who has the experience to answer your queries. More so then ANYONE else likely to read this thread.
Last edited by GPTourer; Oct 17, 2004 at 06:43 PM.