subaru guy takes a ride in shivs EVO 8
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From: Massachusetts
Shiv,
the difference is probably suspension component quality and optimised camber curves - it could be as simple as that. Stick decent quality dampers on a DSM, allowing the spring rates to double and the ride comfort improve, then speed up the camber gain in the front and slow it down in the rear. Increase the front static camber to -1.5* and drop the rear static camber to -1* and the car is a completely different animal. Oh, add in a set of RMR anti-roll bars too. That's all it takes to transform a DSM into an M3 killer in the corners. Mitsu could have done this easily if they'd wanted, they just tuned the suspension for idiots.
Charles Moss
the difference is probably suspension component quality and optimised camber curves - it could be as simple as that. Stick decent quality dampers on a DSM, allowing the spring rates to double and the ride comfort improve, then speed up the camber gain in the front and slow it down in the rear. Increase the front static camber to -1.5* and drop the rear static camber to -1* and the car is a completely different animal. Oh, add in a set of RMR anti-roll bars too. That's all it takes to transform a DSM into an M3 killer in the corners. Mitsu could have done this easily if they'd wanted, they just tuned the suspension for idiots.
Charles Moss
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hey nostatic
i dont know. i can only speculate based on wrxs and older GC8's that have the current STi suspension on it. regardless, i still think the EVO will come out on top in the handling department.
have you ever driven a wrx? its long travel suspension is awesome around town, but the car tends to roll quite a bit on aggressive turns. to counter act the "soft" suspension, many wrx owners, including myself resort to coilovers. even the DMS co's i had on my car couldn't compare to the EVO in stock form. any of the jspec co's are just too high sprung for the cali roads i am used to. my kidneys literally hurt after riding in some of the wrx's equiped with tein, cucso, etc type coilovers. the stock rex has (i think) 170lbs springs in the front and 150lbs in the rear. many of these co's have upwards of 500-800lbs springs. that might work well on the super smooth roads of tokyo, but not the Bay Area. not to mention you loose the travel the wrx is famous for when you lower the car. many Suby guys just cant come to grip with the fact that Subaru's tend to handle better at stock or very near stock height.
on our ride i said to shiv "this car feels alot lighter than it is". the EVO just seems lithe, light on its feet. for me, the straight line stuff is secondary to how the car handles. the chassis dynamics are just really awesome on the EVO. my rex was a very fast car, and handled pretty well compared to other cars.
now i just have to wait for the STi reviews from shiv, and wait until the hype is gone on the EVO so i can get one at MSRP.
josh
PS "evo>sti. plain and simple. if you want a sti then get off the evo forums." i don't think taht is fair, considering i was and still am considering the STi. i feel that there are some suby guys who can contribute a great deal to this forum. being close minded like that is just silly.
i dont know. i can only speculate based on wrxs and older GC8's that have the current STi suspension on it. regardless, i still think the EVO will come out on top in the handling department.
have you ever driven a wrx? its long travel suspension is awesome around town, but the car tends to roll quite a bit on aggressive turns. to counter act the "soft" suspension, many wrx owners, including myself resort to coilovers. even the DMS co's i had on my car couldn't compare to the EVO in stock form. any of the jspec co's are just too high sprung for the cali roads i am used to. my kidneys literally hurt after riding in some of the wrx's equiped with tein, cucso, etc type coilovers. the stock rex has (i think) 170lbs springs in the front and 150lbs in the rear. many of these co's have upwards of 500-800lbs springs. that might work well on the super smooth roads of tokyo, but not the Bay Area. not to mention you loose the travel the wrx is famous for when you lower the car. many Suby guys just cant come to grip with the fact that Subaru's tend to handle better at stock or very near stock height.
on our ride i said to shiv "this car feels alot lighter than it is". the EVO just seems lithe, light on its feet. for me, the straight line stuff is secondary to how the car handles. the chassis dynamics are just really awesome on the EVO. my rex was a very fast car, and handled pretty well compared to other cars.
now i just have to wait for the STi reviews from shiv, and wait until the hype is gone on the EVO so i can get one at MSRP.
josh
PS "evo>sti. plain and simple. if you want a sti then get off the evo forums." i don't think taht is fair, considering i was and still am considering the STi. i feel that there are some suby guys who can contribute a great deal to this forum. being close minded like that is just silly.
Last edited by josh; Mar 16, 2003 at 04:38 PM.
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From: NYC--->ATL--->NYC
Hey Josh, that was the best review, i was cracking up and literally in "the ride" with you and shiv. The most impressive part of the review was that it came from a Subaru guy. Either you guys are blowing smoke up our @$$ cause the new STi rules or you really like our car
That's my conspiracy theory folks
That's my conspiracy theory folks
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From: Richmond VA
The debate will never end.I am one of the very few guys who is lucky enough to find a girl who has a passion for cars and tunning them as much as he does but it ended up being a double sided blade since she is a die hard STi fan and is planning on picking one up this summer around the time I am thinking about picking an Evo up. We have argued countless hours about which is better and performance and everything came down to we will settle it this summer at the track. So I either hope something was up with the orginal dyno numbers or im going to be calling Vishnu up alot getting that thing up to speed to stay with her STi.
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From: 2003 - Evo VIII, 1999 Subaru RS
Hi All,
This is my first post here ... and I'm a subie guy. Like Josh, I was lucky enough to have Shiv let me test drive his new toy. And all I can say is "wow". This car was designed to be on a track. Everything about it is "quick", not just "fast". Steering is laser sharp ... need to be paying a lot of attention (no groggy driving allowed - unless you want to meet the center divide). The is something magical about the chassis. It is so rigid and easy on the driver at the same time. Let me tell about throttle lift oversteer ... hehe, subaru's are nice. They are really slow to rotate and good for the novice driver. The EVO, this is for the men to play with. The car rotates very quickly and if you don't know what you're doing, you can be in a lot of trouble just as fast.
Verdict - I love it ... to bad I have to a roll cage in my Subie to get it be stiffer than the EVO. Talk about sacrafice in daily driveability.
This is my first post here ... and I'm a subie guy. Like Josh, I was lucky enough to have Shiv let me test drive his new toy. And all I can say is "wow". This car was designed to be on a track. Everything about it is "quick", not just "fast". Steering is laser sharp ... need to be paying a lot of attention (no groggy driving allowed - unless you want to meet the center divide). The is something magical about the chassis. It is so rigid and easy on the driver at the same time. Let me tell about throttle lift oversteer ... hehe, subaru's are nice. They are really slow to rotate and good for the novice driver. The EVO, this is for the men to play with. The car rotates very quickly and if you don't know what you're doing, you can be in a lot of trouble just as fast.
Verdict - I love it ... to bad I have to a roll cage in my Subie to get it be stiffer than the EVO. Talk about sacrafice in daily driveability.
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Originally posted by josh
hey nostatic
i dont know. i can only speculate based on wrxs and older GC8's that have the current STi suspension on it. regardless, i still think the EVO will come out on top in the handling department.
hey nostatic
i dont know. i can only speculate based on wrxs and older GC8's that have the current STi suspension on it. regardless, i still think the EVO will come out on top in the handling department.
Most people on this forum have a very open mind. Other people are foolish and sad. Just because I question some aspect of the Evolution, doesn't mean I'm part of the "WRX crowd". I currently own a 2001 Audi S4 and a 1988 911 Club Sport, so I'm biased toward neither car.
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hey all
it was my pleasure to post up my experience. it was really somewhat of a paradigm shift for me being such a subaru loyalist. my wife is SO confused right now. all i could talk about up to last week was the STi, and now all i can talk about is the EVO. thank the lord she is such a great chick, and is basically telling me to get what i want.
nostatic, i too am expecting great improvement, but the basic chassis design is not changed, and that is the krux of the problem. sure, small changes in geometry and spring rates can improve the suspension, but street wise i would be VERY impressed if Subaru can pull in front of the EVO. offroad, the suby has the EVO, but i dont drive my car off road nor rally it. i want a street car.
the other option i toss around is an older GC/F8 project. the older chassis with the newer wrx motor is quite a ride. much closer to the performance you get from the EVO. if you read any of the euro mag, they still complain about the new chassis not being near as dynamic as the older chassis. sure it is WAY stiffer, but the overall feel is lost on the new car. it has been numbed. it just isnt as raw as they used to be, and why the car rose to such cult status in europe and japan.
like you said, only time will tell. i hate being patient, but in this case i am going to have to be. my last car was an S4 avant. loved the car, but that was more numb than the wrx by a long shot. i put co's on it, and the ride didnt really improve. that car was just oo heavy. ungodly torque on the bottom end, and chipped it was pure joy on the upper end.
anyway, glad to see such a posative response. i really cant wait to get another car, and it certainly looks like i will be spending a bunch more time here ASAP
josh
it was my pleasure to post up my experience. it was really somewhat of a paradigm shift for me being such a subaru loyalist. my wife is SO confused right now. all i could talk about up to last week was the STi, and now all i can talk about is the EVO. thank the lord she is such a great chick, and is basically telling me to get what i want.
nostatic, i too am expecting great improvement, but the basic chassis design is not changed, and that is the krux of the problem. sure, small changes in geometry and spring rates can improve the suspension, but street wise i would be VERY impressed if Subaru can pull in front of the EVO. offroad, the suby has the EVO, but i dont drive my car off road nor rally it. i want a street car.
the other option i toss around is an older GC/F8 project. the older chassis with the newer wrx motor is quite a ride. much closer to the performance you get from the EVO. if you read any of the euro mag, they still complain about the new chassis not being near as dynamic as the older chassis. sure it is WAY stiffer, but the overall feel is lost on the new car. it has been numbed. it just isnt as raw as they used to be, and why the car rose to such cult status in europe and japan.
like you said, only time will tell. i hate being patient, but in this case i am going to have to be. my last car was an S4 avant. loved the car, but that was more numb than the wrx by a long shot. i put co's on it, and the ride didnt really improve. that car was just oo heavy. ungodly torque on the bottom end, and chipped it was pure joy on the upper end.
anyway, glad to see such a posative response. i really cant wait to get another car, and it certainly looks like i will be spending a bunch more time here ASAP
josh
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From: Tokyo
You know, I've always been amused at America's reaction to the WRX - and especially the attitude it handles great.
Having actually driven the current STi 8 (JDM), having driven an Evo 7 with the goodies, all I can really say is that now people have an idea what the STi is going to be capable of. Now that they've got it's main competitor to give them an idea of what level "good" stock handling is about.
And this is why I've raved about the handling of the STi 8 vs. the 7, or the GC8 STi's. "Little" tweaks to front and rear geometry along with other changes have brought about polar shifts in handling.
I'm really looking forward to the comparison tests - whoever wins, it's going to be damned fun, and I hope we get to do our own too! The best thing is that you don't have only one car to choose from, but two, ensuring that you can really find the car that matches your tastes, and ensuring that they'll continue to duke it out for top honors, thus bringing ever better cars to the consumers.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
Having actually driven the current STi 8 (JDM), having driven an Evo 7 with the goodies, all I can really say is that now people have an idea what the STi is going to be capable of. Now that they've got it's main competitor to give them an idea of what level "good" stock handling is about.
And this is why I've raved about the handling of the STi 8 vs. the 7, or the GC8 STi's. "Little" tweaks to front and rear geometry along with other changes have brought about polar shifts in handling.
I'm really looking forward to the comparison tests - whoever wins, it's going to be damned fun, and I hope we get to do our own too! The best thing is that you don't have only one car to choose from, but two, ensuring that you can really find the car that matches your tastes, and ensuring that they'll continue to duke it out for top honors, thus bringing ever better cars to the consumers.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
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From: Tokyo
About as soon as the Japanese press finish with it - about a year or so... 
Not quite that bad, but you have to sign up for it. And the Japanese manufacturers are quite cheap about it, with only one or two press cars in their fleet. When you've got as many magazines as Japan does, it can be quite a wait for a car.
Nissan GT-R's were quite hard to get a hand on - only one R34 was available towards the end, and the only way we got a Nur spec was to borrow it from a fellow journo. And they actually took the R34 out of the press fleet before production ceased, making it impossible for a press car test.
Personally, the American journalists have it easy, the American branches of overseas manufacturers, and the American manufacturers, fully know the usefulness of press fleets and bend over backwards in getting cars to the press.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
Not quite that bad, but you have to sign up for it. And the Japanese manufacturers are quite cheap about it, with only one or two press cars in their fleet. When you've got as many magazines as Japan does, it can be quite a wait for a car.
Nissan GT-R's were quite hard to get a hand on - only one R34 was available towards the end, and the only way we got a Nur spec was to borrow it from a fellow journo. And they actually took the R34 out of the press fleet before production ceased, making it impossible for a press car test.
Personally, the American journalists have it easy, the American branches of overseas manufacturers, and the American manufacturers, fully know the usefulness of press fleets and bend over backwards in getting cars to the press.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
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hey shirokuma
please explain the minor changes they made to the STi. are they the same as the Euro version?
since you have driven both, can you describe the major and monor differences? the pluses and minuses of the 2 cars?
i am really anxious to hear about the changes they made to the STi. I have driven in cars equiped with jdm STi suspensions, and was less than impressed. that is on the NEW wrx, not the GC8. the GC8 STi suspension was incredible, but i like the older chassis to begin with.
thanks for the info shirokuma
josh
please explain the minor changes they made to the STi. are they the same as the Euro version?
since you have driven both, can you describe the major and monor differences? the pluses and minuses of the 2 cars?
i am really anxious to hear about the changes they made to the STi. I have driven in cars equiped with jdm STi suspensions, and was less than impressed. that is on the NEW wrx, not the GC8. the GC8 STi suspension was incredible, but i like the older chassis to begin with.
thanks for the info shirokuma
josh