subaru guy takes a ride in shivs EVO 8
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Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Tokyo
I should write up a faq...
Between the STi 7 and 8 lies enough changes to call the 8 a new car.
While the basic chassis hasn't changed much, what they changed makes it behave very differently from the 7. The rear suspension geometry and suspension mount points were changed to remove the problem with excessive toe changes in the rear. This has dramatically improved the rear suspension's stability and traction. Along with this, STi revised the rear arb and now uses solid pillow-ball arb links in the rear.
They revised the front suspension geometry on the RA model by moving it forwards 15mm and also added in a host of other changes, along with a chassis stiffener, improving turn-in. The standard STi's turn-in is already improved, but the RA takes it further. It throttle oversteers far easier than a 350Z - the closest comparison I have is a heavily massaged Miata with arb upgrades that I drove to the STi test, and even then, because of the STi's power and DCCD, the STi loved power oversteer even more than the Miata (mx5/roadster in other countries). They are using the standard links on the front, though. I think this move was done for a turn-in/road compliance trade-off. Moving to solid ARB links in the front would probably increase turn in, at the expense of road-noise and bump feedback.
Moving to 070 rubber stock certainly helped over the 040's - I've got 040's on my car, and they are only "ok" as far as I'm concerned.
While most people make mention of the front geometry changes, from my experience with Subaru's, it's the rear suspension changes that affect the turn-in and handling in corners the most. They've minimized the off-throttle snap to a controllable point, then tuned the suspension for oversteer control. Because of the toe problems in the rear on past models, they simply tuned the suspension for heavy understeer, to keep people on the road. With the new rear setup, they've move to a more neutral handling setup, with a touch of understeer that can be overcome with the throttle.
Back to back, the RA model with the front suspension geometry is really for the studliest of drivers. I felt that I would be faster overall, or more accurately, more consistant lap-after-lap with the standard STi setup. Possibly that's why the Evo Puma driver was only a couple of 10's faster in the RA over the standard STi, vs. about a second faster in the RS vs. GSR Evo. I've heard that they are making running changes to the STi's because of tester findings in the States. The USDM STi will be riding on the RA front geometry (and I suspect, using the RA bodyshell too).
Ah, last and not least, STi listens, and one of the other major changes they did was to lighten the top of the vehicle as much as possible. The RA is not as top heavy as the standard STi, and even the standard STi feels nowhere near as top heavy as the STi 7 - which is probably the main reason the STi 7 feels so much worse than a GC8 STi.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
Between the STi 7 and 8 lies enough changes to call the 8 a new car.
While the basic chassis hasn't changed much, what they changed makes it behave very differently from the 7. The rear suspension geometry and suspension mount points were changed to remove the problem with excessive toe changes in the rear. This has dramatically improved the rear suspension's stability and traction. Along with this, STi revised the rear arb and now uses solid pillow-ball arb links in the rear.
They revised the front suspension geometry on the RA model by moving it forwards 15mm and also added in a host of other changes, along with a chassis stiffener, improving turn-in. The standard STi's turn-in is already improved, but the RA takes it further. It throttle oversteers far easier than a 350Z - the closest comparison I have is a heavily massaged Miata with arb upgrades that I drove to the STi test, and even then, because of the STi's power and DCCD, the STi loved power oversteer even more than the Miata (mx5/roadster in other countries). They are using the standard links on the front, though. I think this move was done for a turn-in/road compliance trade-off. Moving to solid ARB links in the front would probably increase turn in, at the expense of road-noise and bump feedback.
Moving to 070 rubber stock certainly helped over the 040's - I've got 040's on my car, and they are only "ok" as far as I'm concerned.
While most people make mention of the front geometry changes, from my experience with Subaru's, it's the rear suspension changes that affect the turn-in and handling in corners the most. They've minimized the off-throttle snap to a controllable point, then tuned the suspension for oversteer control. Because of the toe problems in the rear on past models, they simply tuned the suspension for heavy understeer, to keep people on the road. With the new rear setup, they've move to a more neutral handling setup, with a touch of understeer that can be overcome with the throttle.
Back to back, the RA model with the front suspension geometry is really for the studliest of drivers. I felt that I would be faster overall, or more accurately, more consistant lap-after-lap with the standard STi setup. Possibly that's why the Evo Puma driver was only a couple of 10's faster in the RA over the standard STi, vs. about a second faster in the RS vs. GSR Evo. I've heard that they are making running changes to the STi's because of tester findings in the States. The USDM STi will be riding on the RA front geometry (and I suspect, using the RA bodyshell too).
Ah, last and not least, STi listens, and one of the other major changes they did was to lighten the top of the vehicle as much as possible. The RA is not as top heavy as the standard STi, and even the standard STi feels nowhere near as top heavy as the STi 7 - which is probably the main reason the STi 7 feels so much worse than a GC8 STi.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
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Joined: Sep 2002
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thanks paul!
great review of the details.
i am still curious if these are the same changes that the UK got.
none the less, i am excited to see how the reviews will stack up. i will not be buying either until after the STi is released here, so that should give ample time to see a show off in all the mags.
shiv will be driving it soon as well, and he usually shares the same opinions as i do.
thanks again
josh
great review of the details.
i am still curious if these are the same changes that the UK got.
none the less, i am excited to see how the reviews will stack up. i will not be buying either until after the STi is released here, so that should give ample time to see a show off in all the mags.
shiv will be driving it soon as well, and he usually shares the same opinions as i do.
thanks again
josh
In Timeout
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 40
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From: Bay Area, CA
Originally posted by Claudius
I guess his messages helped a lot of people on here understand what I mean when I say no subaru will ever be as good as an Evo.
I guess his messages helped a lot of people on here understand what I mean when I say no subaru will ever be as good as an Evo.
--bobby
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Wow, that's great info Paul. I can attest to the rear suspension of the WRX to be a big issue as far as its relatively sloppy handling goes. I recently installed upgraded trailing arms and toe links. This completely replaced the rear suspension with solid, fully adjustable, pillow ball equipped replacements. Not only does it fix the camber issues inherent with even slightly lowered wagons, it made the transition from grip to slide during trailing throttle a lot more progressive and devoid of the usual grip-slip-grip-slip back-and-forth behavior that I noticed with the stock WRX. Turn-in was also improved substantially. And this is just through eliminating busing slop. I can't wait to see the effects of the new geometry changes. Maybe there's hope afterall 
Cheers,
Shiv
Cheers,
Shiv
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 232
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From: Tokyo
Well, it's a somewhat personal issue to me - I've owned a Legacy B4 B and D revision now. When I first got the B rev, the main problem we had with the car was the rear end's tendency to be anything but predictable, especially on lift throttle. At 100mph, it wasn't something I'd term fun...
Anyways, we went at the problem from every angle, from aerodynamics to rear stiffeners. While strut bars and suspension bars helped, it still didn't cure the problem. But we talked to STi about it, they actually took some time to look at it, and the upshot was a mid-life rear suspension change, the addition of a bolt-in rear bar in the suspension that was stock for the Rev. C, and was retro-fittable to the earlier cars. And had a day-and-night change on handling, well, at least from our at-the-edge-of-adhesion view.
The STi, the new WRX, the Crossports Forester all recieved revisions to the rear-end suspension setup, and it helps. STi doesn't always get it right, but they do listen.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
Anyways, we went at the problem from every angle, from aerodynamics to rear stiffeners. While strut bars and suspension bars helped, it still didn't cure the problem. But we talked to STi about it, they actually took some time to look at it, and the upshot was a mid-life rear suspension change, the addition of a bolt-in rear bar in the suspension that was stock for the Rev. C, and was retro-fittable to the earlier cars. And had a day-and-night change on handling, well, at least from our at-the-edge-of-adhesion view.
The STi, the new WRX, the Crossports Forester all recieved revisions to the rear-end suspension setup, and it helps. STi doesn't always get it right, but they do listen.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 232
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From: Tokyo
JDM, yes. USDM, it should. I don't see any reason why it won't have it, since the side effect is that the car is more stable and less prone to snap oversteer.
Why SOA hasn't talked about it may be for the simple reason of clearing inventory.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
Why SOA hasn't talked about it may be for the simple reason of clearing inventory.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
Originally posted by shiv@vishnu
Hey, nice review Josh
From the driver's perspective, the EVO is even more impressive. I routinely get into long debates with other magazine journo-types as to why the EVO works as well as it does and so much better than the WRX. It's funny.... on paper, a DSM's suspension is more sophicated than that of the EVOs. But, on the road, they couldn't be more different. It's a real driver's car. I'd put it up there with any other car I've ever driven (FD3S RX-7, NSX, F360, 996tt, Diablo, etc,. included) as one of the most rewarding cars to drive as quickly as possible, from point A to point B. The fact that it already has 370-odd dyno pulls under it's belt after only 1 week of ownership also shows how robust it is
Cheers,
Shiv
Hey, nice review Josh
From the driver's perspective, the EVO is even more impressive. I routinely get into long debates with other magazine journo-types as to why the EVO works as well as it does and so much better than the WRX. It's funny.... on paper, a DSM's suspension is more sophicated than that of the EVOs. But, on the road, they couldn't be more different. It's a real driver's car. I'd put it up there with any other car I've ever driven (FD3S RX-7, NSX, F360, 996tt, Diablo, etc,. included) as one of the most rewarding cars to drive as quickly as possible, from point A to point B. The fact that it already has 370-odd dyno pulls under it's belt after only 1 week of ownership also shows how robust it is
Cheers,
Shiv
I traded in my WRX for an EVO
I have been driving the evo for awhile now, and i love it.. Only thing i miss about the WRX is the exhaust note..
I would hope the STi will be on par in handling, but i would say subaru really likes to dumb down their cars for the US market, so until we see it, i wouldn't be making any bets..
Of course i will have been enjoying my EVO while everyone else is waiting to see if the STi will even be any good. I really don't see how Subaru could create a better car then the evo anyway. At least not for the street.
my $0.02
I have been driving the evo for awhile now, and i love it.. Only thing i miss about the WRX is the exhaust note..
I would hope the STi will be on par in handling, but i would say subaru really likes to dumb down their cars for the US market, so until we see it, i wouldn't be making any bets..
Of course i will have been enjoying my EVO while everyone else is waiting to see if the STi will even be any good. I really don't see how Subaru could create a better car then the evo anyway. At least not for the street.
my $0.02
In Timeout
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 40
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From: Bay Area, CA
Originally posted by zyounker
I traded in my WRX for an EVO
I have been driving the evo for awhile now, and i love it.. Only thing i miss about the WRX is the exhaust note..
I would hope the STi will be on par in handling, but i would say subaru really likes to dumb down their cars for the US market, so until we see it, i wouldn't be making any bets..
Of course i will have been enjoying my EVO while everyone else is waiting to see if the STi will even be any good. I really don't see how Subaru could create a better car then the evo anyway. At least not for the street.
my $0.02
I traded in my WRX for an EVO
I have been driving the evo for awhile now, and i love it.. Only thing i miss about the WRX is the exhaust note..
I would hope the STi will be on par in handling, but i would say subaru really likes to dumb down their cars for the US market, so until we see it, i wouldn't be making any bets..
Of course i will have been enjoying my EVO while everyone else is waiting to see if the STi will even be any good. I really don't see how Subaru could create a better car then the evo anyway. At least not for the street.
my $0.02
--bobby
Originally posted by BobbyD
wow.. congrads on the car but you must of lost a great deal of money in the trade.. care to tell us how much?
--bobby
wow.. congrads on the car but you must of lost a great deal of money in the trade.. care to tell us how much?
--bobby
Well, yes and no
I got 16.5K for the WRX (it was an 02)
But the tires where BALD, and there was a small golfball sized dent on one fender, a few chips, and some cuts to the rear bumper from rocks slicing it as they flew by.
I took that car off road quite often. i don't feel too bad though, all the problems where cosmetic. I never put load on the engine cold, never boosted it until i had normal oil temps, and changed the oil every 2K miles.
But i definatly drove the **** out of it..
I actually ended up getting ~ 5K of equity out of it, and i now have an EVO